First mics for recording flute

[RossoCarne]

My wife is taking a large foray into playing flute and we both want to start making some recordings. I'll stress that I have absolutely no experience in anything to do with recording, although both my wife and I are both experienced playing. I'm getting advice from a few people and I wanted to get a top down feel of advice from this community as well. Basically, for someone just starting out, I'm not looking for anything that will win a Grammy, but something that can make HD quality sound better than using my phone mic =D. Distribution at this stage would be Youtube videos or similar (but everyone knows Youtube videos so yeah.)

The plan is to mostly play modern classical "soundtrack" style music, Irish and Celtic arrangements, and some Romantic era. I realize all these probably have different optimal setups, but the preference is going to weigh more on the modern sound than anything. Most pieces will be written for flute and piccolo with piano, but she also has access to flute sizes down to contrabass.

I have a friend who plays in a country / folk band, and also has connections with the local opera and classical music scene. Upon convening with one of his friends who pays flute, his initial suggestion was that a flute HAD to be recorded on a ribbon mic to sound any good, although much of what I read here seems to suggest otherwise, more that a ribbon will sound great, but is not necessary. Either way, I'm sure that will be addressed. Here are the specific suggestions:

- For flute recording, the Avantone Audio CR14 for close up recording and an Audio-technica PRO37 for further back, and to use the two mics to record in stereo. (Again, I don't really know if that's how it works, I thought stereo needed two similar mics at similar conditions but different relative positions, but I'm dumb to all this and happily open to correction).

- For piano, using two Audio-technica PRO37s positioned in the back of the piano on either side (kinda what i though stereo really was haha). Looking at the mic itself, I don't quite understand how you'd position that mic inside the piano.

- Not mic related per se, but it was also suggested to use the Presonus line of audiobox, and Presonus StudioOne as the recording DAW.

So there you have it, I wanted to get suggestions, or at least some confirmation to whether these are good suggestions before I go blow $800-900 on equipment for someone just starting.

Thanks. Any other details that would be helpful, let me know.

 

[gecko zzed]

Upon convening with one of his friends who pays flute, his initial suggestion was that a flute HAD to be recorded on a ribbon mic to sound any good

There is only one imperative for recording flute (or any other instrument, for that matter): you choose the mike that delivers the sound you are expecting to hear. In some cases, a ribbon is fine. In other cases, any one of a number of mikes will likewise be fine.

If you are seeking a highly detailed sound with a lot of breath and splutter (which is generally my preference), then I'd opt for an SDC (such as the AT Pro 37). I've used an even smaller SDC (AT 853), which is really an ensemble mike, but it is great for a high level of detail.

If you are seeking a more rounded sound, then the Avantone would do the trick. The Rode NTR would be great as well, thought it's a bit more pricey. But even a plain old SM58 will give you good results.

- For flute recording, the Avantone Audio CR14 for close up recording and an Audio-technica PRO37 for further back, and to use the two mics to record in stereo. (Again, I don't really know if that's how it works, I thought stereo needed two similar mics at similar conditions but different relative positions, but I'm dumb to all this and happily open to correction).

You are right. One close and one distant is not really stereo, though you can pan them apart and pretend they are stereo. I would not be happy with that. Using a room (i.e. distant) mike works if the room acoustics are good. If you are recording in a hall or some other venue where the acoustics are to be a part of the sound, then consider setting up a pair of distant SDCs. Otherwise just use one close to the flute and add reverb after the event.

 

[Bobbsy]

I'm another SDC (small diaphragm condenser) user for flutes. My personal preferences are the AKG C391 (fairly price) or sE 1A (much cheaper but almost as good).

A second trick (more for live use but I've also done it in the studio) is one of those circular mounts that can actually put a small "lav" style condenser on the mic itself. This is particularly useful in situations where the flautist moves around a lot with the music. There are specialist instrument mics and mounts for this but I've had decent results with mics I have to have like the Sennheiser MKE2 and Sony ECM77.

I'd have to say that, more important than the actual mic choice is how you position the mic relative to the flute. Because of the way it creates the music, movements of only a few inches can make a big difference in how things sound.

 

[JefferySmith]

This fellow shows a comparison of an inexpensive ribbon mic (Cascade Fathead) and a Shure dynamic. With headphones on, the difference is big, but through laptop speakers, not so much.

The Rode NTR won't need a Cloudlifter, but I would recommend one with the Cascade ribbon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4P6fP5PfnU

 

[Bobbsy]

Note that the SM57 dynamic (and indeed most/any dynamics) would not make it to my short list for recording flute so I'm not sure about the validity of the test above. The SM57 will be a lot less bright and lack a lot of the detail that a condenser or maybe a ribbon would give.

...and I certainly wouldn't suggest using laptop speakers for any kind of listening.

 

[RossoCarne]

If you are seeking a highly detailed sound with a lot of breath and splutter (which is generally my preference), then I'd opt for an SDC (such as the AT Pro 37). I've used an even smaller SDC (AT 853), which is really an ensemble mike, but it is great for a high level of detail.

If you are seeking a more rounded sound, then the Avantone would do the trick. The Rode NTR would be great as well, thought it's a bit more pricey. But even a plain old SM58 will give you good results.

You are right. One close and one distant is not really stereo, though you can pan them apart and pretend they are stereo. I would not be happy with that. Using a room (i.e. distant) mike works if the room acoustics are good. If you are recording in a hall or some other venue where the acoustics are to be a part of the sound, then consider setting up a pair of distant SDCs. Otherwise just use one close to the flute and add reverb after the event.

i feel like the fine details are probably quite important. There's a lot of fast paced stuff and harmonization between tracks and that wold come through better. I also feel like it would help alleviate the crowd that likes to claim that recordings are just someone fingering along to a MIDI track the second a video is a millionth of a second off the audio.

Is it important to record in stereo? (again, I'm completely dumb in this) I'd seen someone who suggested placing two mics, one 15 cm away from the instrument and another 40 cm away (or so) and recording that in stereo. Is that closer to acceptable? I guess I just don't know how much that affects the quality of the recording. And if I set it up that way, would I need two of the same mic to do it?

A second trick (more for live use but I've also done it in the studio) is one of those circular mounts that can actually put a small "lav" style condenser on the mic itself. This is particularly useful in situations where the flautist moves around a lot with the music. There are specialist instrument mics and mounts for this but I've had decent results with mics I have to have like the Sennheiser MKE2 and Sony ECM77.

I'd have to say that, more important than the actual mic choice is how you position the mic relative to the flute. Because of the way it creates the music, movements of only a few inches can make a big difference in how things sound.

She's like a young sapling in a windstorm going back and forth. It's going to be interesting.

This fellow shows a comparison of an inexpensive ribbon mic (Cascade Fathead) and a Shure dynamic. With headphones on, the difference is big, but through laptop speakers, not so much.

The Rode NTR won't need a Cloudlifter, but I would recommend one with the Cascade ribbon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4P6fP5PfnU

And there is where I'm probably going to need to get a little more discerning. Listening to the above I can hear differences in tone in the vocal and drum recordings, but the flute recordings sound pretty much the same.

 

[Bobbsy]

If she's going to be the "sapling in a windstorm" then I strongly suggest the option of mounting a small mic on the flute itself. HERE'S an example of one sort of mount but if you Google "Mic mount for flute" you'll find lots of similar options. Depending on your budget we can probably help you choose. I personally like the offerings from Countryman and DPA but they're in a pretty high price range and my liking is from when somebody else was paying! There are also generic mounts that will let you choose a small mic separately.

 

[gecko zzed]

Is it important to record in stereo? (again, I'm completely dumb in this)

There are two reasons why you would choose to record in stereo. The first is that your sound source is very wide (like a drum kit, a grand piano or a pipe organ) and you want to convey that sense of width in the recording. The second is that the placement of your sound source in the recording space is important.

The first is generally not applicable. While the body of the flute resonates to a blown note, effectively the flute is a point source, and a single mike is all you need to capture its essence.

The second reason may be important. Although the flute is the source of sound, what you end up hearing is the flute and the effect that the room has on the sound, and the combination of the two are what you might want to record. This would be the case if, as mentioned in an earlier post, the venue was special (i.e. it had acoustics that were important to the sound, such as a concert hall or a cathedral). If the recording space does not support the flute (such as a very dry room that makes it sound lifeless), then there is nothing to be gained by recording in stereo.

This also applies if you are using two mikes that are not strictly stereo, such as one 15cm away and one 40cm away. This is not likely to do much for you except maybe introduce some unwanted and unpleasant comb filtering.

Instead, I'd set up one mike about 60cm away, and point it in the general direction of the flautist's mouth, then hit record. This distance allows the sound of the flute to develop and the mike to pick up the whole of the instrument without the room being too much of an influence. And it doesn't matter as much if the flautist sways like an aspen.

In the end, though, these are nothing more than suggestions, and you can experiment with positions, distances and the number of mikes until you get the sort of sound you are hoping for.

This might be useful too:
- Recording the Flute : Recording Magazine -

 

[Bobbsy]

I'm in agreement with Gecko. I wouldn't worry about stereo (or even 2 mic) recording in an average home. The flute is very much a mono source so the main reason for stereo is to include the room effect. This can sound great in a really nice room...say a cathedral or a concert hall...but a typical home room will just add a slightly boxy echo. Even in a nice room, if you're after clean detail in the flute sound, the stereo recording would make it more difficult to hear that detail. The room in a cathedral or whatever can give a nice evocative sound judged as a whole but does take away from the fine detail you'd get close up.

 

[VomitHatSteve]

I've only recorded flute once, but I got pretty decent results with an SM58 in a noisy room.

 

[joey2000]

his initial suggestion was that a flute HAD to be recorded on a ribbon mic to sound any good,

I'm pretty new to all of this, but even I know that's wrong. Frankly I would have stopped seeking his advice at that point. As gecko said, it depends primarily on what kind of sound you want. Really I would think a ribbon would not be "bright" enough, but can't say for sure, and again if that's what you're after, it might work best....but "has to be _______ to sound any good" is almost always going to be bunk, perhaps beyond some really basic/extreme limitations.

Anyway, some great replies here. It's interesting how I can pick up snippets of info on here even by reading posts that aren't relevant to what I plan to do Thanks all

 

[RossoCarne]

If she's going to be the "sapling in a windstorm" then I strongly suggest the option of mounting a small mic on the flute itself. HERE'S an example of one sort of mount but if you Google "Mic mount for flute" you'll find lots of similar options. Depending on your budget we can probably help you choose. I personally like the offerings from Countryman and DPA but they're in a pretty high price range and my liking is from when somebody else was paying! There are also generic mounts that will let you choose a small mic separately.

I was afraid those would give wind sounds just because the mic would be moving the whole time. Not so? I hadn't seen a lot of people who used that sort of setup and just figured it was a gimmick that didn't produce very good sound.

The second reason may be important. Although the flute is the source of sound, what you end up hearing is the flute and the effect that the room has on the sound, and the combination of the two are what you might want to record. This would be the case if, as mentioned in an earlier post, the venue was special (i.e. it had acoustics that were important to the sound, such as a concert hall or a cathedral). If the recording space does not support the flute (such as a very dry room that makes it sound lifeless), then there is nothing to be gained by recording in stereo.

This also applies if you are using two mikes that are not strictly stereo, such as one 15cm away and one 40cm away. This is not likely to do much for you except maybe introduce some unwanted and unpleasant comb filtering.

Instead, I'd set up one mike about 60cm away, and point it in the general direction of the flautist's mouth, then hit record. This distance allows the sound of the flute to develop and the mike to pick up the whole of the instrument without the room being too much of an influence. And it doesn't matter as much if the flautist sways like an aspen.

My plan would be to record here in the basement. It has about zero echo, and is slightly damp, but I do have a dehumidifier system running constantly. Would that room give the flute itself a poor sound or should I just take it that there is nothing beneficial from using two mics? Any other space in my home is more echoy and larger. My piano is also upstairs, so it would probably be a bonus to be able to record upstairs; as it stands we'd have to record separately.

I'm in agreement with Gecko. I wouldn't worry about stereo (or even 2 mic) recording in an average home. The flute is very much a mono source so the main reason for stereo is to include the room effect. This can sound great in a really nice room...say a cathedral or a concert hall...but a typical home room will just add a slightly boxy echo. Even in a nice room, if you're after clean detail in the flute sound, the stereo recording would make it more difficult to hear that detail. The room in a cathedral or whatever can give a nice evocative sound judged as a whole but does take away from the fine detail you'd get close up.

Some select pieces I was planning on playing in a large church. There are some songs with a wide range that will have parts all the way down to a contrabass and up to a picc. In that case you'd suggest getting a 2 mic setup to hear the room? Also, will I need separate mics to capture the pitch range of the different instruments better?

I really do feel like a moron having to ask these things.

 

[gecko zzed]

My piano is also upstairs, so it would probably be a bonus to be able to record upstairs; as it stands we'd have to record separately.

Why can't you record the flute in the same room as the piano? That would make sense to me. There's no need to make things more complicated than they need to be.

Some select pieces I was planning on playing in a large church. There are some songs with a wide range that will have parts all the way down to a contrabass and up to a picc. In that case you'd suggest getting a 2 mic setup to hear the room?

It is likely that a single mike will pick up enough of the church to get you the effect you want. But you could add another mike somewhere else within the church to make sure.

Also, will I need separate mics to capture the pitch range of the different instruments better?

You won't need another mike to capture the different instruments better. Any reasonable mike will cope.

 

[RossoCarne]

Why can't you record the flute in the same room as the piano? That would make sense to me. There's no need to make things more complicated than they need to be.



It is likely that a single mike will pick up enough of the church to get you the effect you want. But you could add another mike somewhere else within the church to make sure.




You won't need another mike to capture the different instruments better. Any reasonable mike will cope.

This gets less complicated the more I ask.

I was afraid that recording in my upstairs would not make for good sound. The room my piano is in is hardwood floored, relatively small with two openings, I figured that would make for poor quality flute, but not so much with the piano since I was planning on micing the inside (though being that everything else I've been told is awash, I wouldn't be surprised if that just went out as well.) Would recording flute in that space be ok?

 

[gecko zzed]

This gets less complicated the more I ask.

That's often the case

I was afraid that recording in my upstairs would not make for good sound. The room my piano is in is hardwood floored, relatively small with two openings, I figured that would make for poor quality flute, but not so much with the piano since I was planning on micing the inside (though being that everything else I've been told is awash, I wouldn't be surprised if that just went out as well.) Would recording flute in that space be ok?

What does 'relatively small' mean? What are the actual dimensions?

Pianos are sometimes miked on the inside, but it is difficult to get an even response across all strings this way . . . the mikes are too close to some strings and too far away from others. Is it an upright piano? My usual choices are to put a spaced pair of mikes at the back of the piano, or to open the lid and have a pair poking into the body. Another option is to place a pair in XY configuration on a stand behind the pianist, facing the piano, to roughly replicate the sound as a pianist would hear it.

 

[rob aylestone]

You are over thinking this.
Step one. Record the flute with one mic and listen.
Step two. Repeat with other mic. Perhaps record with booths and listen to that.

Your results, in your location are key. Knowing the size of somebody else's space doesn't help, and two identical size spaces might sound small and boxy or large and warm, if they are constructed and decorated differently.

I too suggest NOT trying to record in stereo, because flutes, having a stopped tube have very little width, and much worse, flautists tend to move quite a lot, so if you recorded accurately in stereo, people listening on headphones might feel nauseous! Mixing two different mics in almost mono might give you more tonal scope, but mono and a decent reverb will probably do better. I never record them with two mics myself. There's a big difference between lindisfarne and James Galway.

 

[Bobbsy]

If you have all the gear, Rob is right. Simply trying it out is what you need to do here. Assuming you actually have access to the mics you mentioned, I'd use one of the PR37s on the Flute. Play with the positioning but start slightly above and in front of your wife--say about 15 inches away. If she moves as much as you fear, you may need to either move farther away or switch to the sort of flute mount I mentioned. The position will be a mix of getting the right tone but not getting unpleasant room tone.

For the piano, I'd use 2 PR37s with the top lid open and the mics pointing in but either just above the piano or poking slightly in. Again, play with the exact position...it will make a big difference.

Note that if you want to perform together, you'll need an interface with more mic inputs than the Presonus you mention--and I wouldn't do piano with less the 2 mics in a home setting. If you're happy recording one instrument then the other, you'll be okay.

If by some miracle your piano room sounds good, the other technique you could try is to mount two PR37s in an X-Y configuration far enough away to pick up both instruments in at true stereo mode. This method is commonly used on classical styles of music--but the room has to sound okay and you have to control your own sound balance in the performance.

A caveat: I've never knowingly heard the PRO37 but I'm assuming it has a typical SDC sound.

 

[RossoCarne]

That's often the case



What does 'relatively small' mean? What are the actual dimensions?

Pianos are sometimes miked on the inside, but it is difficult to get an even response across all strings this way . . . the mikes are too close to some strings and too far away from others. Is it an upright piano? My usual choices are to put a spaced pair of mikes at the back of the piano, or to open the lid and have a pair poking into the body. Another option is to place a pair in XY configuration on a stand behind the pianist, facing the piano, to roughly replicate the sound as a pianist would hear it.

Room is 12' x 12'. And it is an upright, a HD&Co Boston.

You are over thinking this.
Step one. Record the flute with one mic and listen.
Step two. Repeat with other mic. Perhaps record with booths and listen to that.

Your results, in your location are key. Knowing the size of somebody else's space doesn't help, and two identical size spaces might sound small and boxy or large and warm, if they are constructed and decorated differently.

I too suggest NOT trying to record in stereo, because flutes, having a stopped tube have very little width, and much worse, flautists tend to move quite a lot, so if you recorded accurately in stereo, people listening on headphones might feel nauseous! Mixing two different mics in almost mono might give you more tonal scope, but mono and a decent reverb will probably do better. I never record them with two mics myself. There's a big difference between lindisfarne and James Galway.

Thanks, though the problem here really is that I don't have any of this, I'm completely new to it all and I didn't really even know where to start before all this.

If you have all the gear, Rob is right. Simply trying it out is what you need to do here. Assuming you actually have access to the mics you mentioned, I'd use one of the PR37s on the Flute. Play with the positioning but start slightly above and in front of your wife--say about 15 inches away. If she moves as much as you fear, you may need to either move farther away or switch to the sort of flute mount I mentioned. The position will be a mix of getting the right tone but not getting unpleasant room tone.

For the piano, I'd use 2 PR37s with the top lid open and the mics pointing in but either just above the piano or poking slightly in. Again, play with the exact position...it will make a big difference.

Note that if you want to perform together, you'll need an interface with more mic inputs than the Presonus you mention--and I wouldn't do piano with less the 2 mics in a home setting. If you're happy recording one instrument then the other, you'll be okay.

If by some miracle your piano room sounds good, the other technique you could try is to mount two PR37s in an X-Y configuration far enough away to pick up both instruments in at true stereo mode. This method is commonly used on classical styles of music--but the room has to sound okay and you have to control your own sound balance in the performance.

A caveat: I've never knowingly heard the PRO37 but I'm assuming it has a typical SDC sound.

Yeah and again, I'm asking this all mostly because I don't have anything bought and thus have nothing to play with.

Thanks for all these suggestions, I feel like my bill is getting smaller and smaller =D. Here are two other items if yinz could provide comments:

I read somewhere (can't find in my history where I read it, will post if I can find it) that the best mic for the instrument is an omni mic. As far as I can tell, none of these mentioned thus far are omni. Would that help sound a lot?
Also, here is Dr. David Klee. He advocates for an LDC as opposed to everything else here.

Thanks

 

[Bobbsy]

As you're probably guessing, there is no single "right" way to record a flute (or any other source). A lot boils down to personal taste and the "sound" of the room you're in comes into play as well. The good news is that, of all the gear suggested, there probably aren't any really bad choices either.

 

[Paj]

I can tell you this: I've had a lot of good live, ensemble takes with an SM-58 that sit in the mix with a 50s-60s vibe. I think an SM-58 works for flute the same classic way that SM-57s works for a Leslie---just instantly gives a classic, recognizable vibe.

Paj
8^)