Firewire is dead, Long Live USB 3.0

wheelema

wheelema

Boner-obo
In all honesty this is not yet true, but it's inevitable. Hopefully we'll see USB 3.0 interfaces at CES in January and throughout 2013. USB 3.0 is already the de-facto standard on current motherboards whereas finding mobos with Firewire is getting harder.

I seriously would not buy a Firewire interface if I could hold off for a month or so.
 
I agree.

Funny to think that 2 or 3 years ago people were telling me Firewire is the future.

Right up there with HD DVD!
 
wheelema said:
In all honesty this is not yet true, but it's inevitable. Hopefully we'll see USB 3.0 interfaces at CES in January and throughout 2013. USB 3.0 is already the de-facto standard on current motherboards whereas finding mobos with Firewire is getting harder.

I seriously would not buy a Firewire interface if I could hold off for a month or so.
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An interesting observation!
Don't know about the rest of the world but the situation re FWire in UK was strange...
Basically if you could not afford a pretty upmarket computer you did not get it. This was of no real consequence because for 99.9% of users usb 2.0 was more than adequate.

But FW interfaces beat the pants off usb in the begining of course, but not it has emerged because of any intrinsic problem with usb, it was just that manufacturers had not put the work in AFAICT. RME and a very few others have now turned that around.

Fussywire was of course a big problem in the audio world. I remember reading horror story after horror story in the forums, a TI chipset helped, but not in every case and if you had a ground loop problem with FW? Stuffed!

But wither usb 3.0 interfaces? I asked this question on a forum about 6 months ago and got short shrift. I was told that usb 2.0 had now "come of age" and there was no need to use a faster system for AIs. So why Thunderbolt interfaces? Apart from anything else usb 3.0 allows more power and that would help a lot, punchier bus powered headphone amps for one thing!

Dave.
 
Having just gone through the pain of replacing my laptop, I fully agree.

I have an investment in a Firewire interface that I don't want to scrap just yet, but the need for FW really restricted my choice of computer hardware. In the end, I went with a laptop that doesn't have native Firewire but has an Expressbus slot into which I could plug a 3rd party interface.

I'm pretty sure that next time around I'll be looking at changing my interface though.
 
wheelema said:
As of today Newegg.com offers 260 motherboards that feature USB 3.0 and only 61 with Firewire. I fully expect Firewire to be dead and buried before the end of 2013.
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Quite^. And no one has so far mentioned the fact that you can take a usb interface almost anywhere and run it on just about any PC or mac. Even if you FIND a desktop at a mate's with Fussywire it is unlikely to be a TI chipset and there are virtually no laptops with 6pin powered FW.

My NI Ka6 runs bish-bosh on 2 XP machines and 2 W7/64 Jobbies. One of those is a W7/64 lappy. I have not tried it yet on my works Toshiba laptop but as that is Blista I am ready for trouble!

Dave.
 
Still running a good old PCI rig....I actually have two DAW workstations, both using PCI, and each with 24 channels of A/D/A.

Only thing I use USB for is transferring files to/from storage.
 
miroslav said:
Still running a good old PCI rig....I actually have two DAW workstations, both using PCI, and each with 24 channels of A/D/A.

Only thing I use USB for is transferring files to/from storage.
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My setup is similar but a wee bit less ambitious! Zed 10 into a 2496. As I mentioned, I would love to upgrade from the 2496 but cannot find a 192. I could afford an RME PCIe card, just about, but in truth I would be wasting 75% of its capabilty.

I also want balanced inputs.

Dave.
 
wheelema,

Thanks for the USB 3 tip! Have been looking at USB mics. Any tips or links for upcoming USB 3 musical products (especially mics)?

Thanks again

Kenith
 
Firewire was originally developed as a method to get video onto the computer. Since video requires way more "through-put" it became a natural fit for high resolution audio as well.

My understanding is that windoze makes the initial "handshake" connection and then leaves firewire alone with its software application; whereas USB is monitored in some manner continuously, thus more subject to possible side effects of interrupts from the many other processes the computer has running.

in terms of MACs, it is claimed that thunderbolt is backward compatible with firewire via an adapter. New MACs have had the firewire port replaced by thunderbolt.

To this point, although USB has theoretical greater throughput, firewire still gives more actual tracks. I routinely record 24 tracks @ 44.1 24 bits without any glitches via a Profire Lightbridge interface from my ADAT HD24.
 
Tom Hicks said:
Firewire was originally developed as a method to get video onto the computer. Since video requires way more "through-put" it became a natural fit for high resolution audio as well.

My understanding is that windoze makes the initial "handshake" connection and then leaves firewire alone with its software application; whereas USB is monitored in some manner continuously, thus more subject to possible side effects of interrupts from the many other processes the computer has running.

in terms of MACs, it is claimed that thunderbolt is backward compatible with firewire via an adapter. New MACs have had the firewire port replaced by thunderbolt.

To this point, although USB has theoretical greater throughput, firewire still gives more actual tracks. I routinely record 24 tracks @ 44.1 24 bits without any glitches via a Profire Lightbridge interface from my ADAT HD24.
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The above is, AFAIK all true. Now I am FAR from any computer guru but this is what I have gleaned over some 7 years.

Yes, usb relies on the PC to do most of the work and early PCs did not have enough grunt to run many tracks. That is no longer the case and even a modest PC today is 2-3G dual core 4G ram and can handle quite decent load, certainly enough for the home studio jockey.

FW has most of the processing in the box and so can run more tracks (akin to PCI) but this makes it more expensive $ per track (this is quite apart from the fact that there was really only one, TI, chipset that would run FW audio and even then some laptop MOBOs simply did not have the grunt. As I said, I have been lurking and looking for 7 years and it is only in the last two or so that the Fussywire compatibilty horrors have about ceased).
But it emerged about 2yrs ago that much of the "problem" with usb audio was not intrinsic to the protocol it was poor original design and even worse drivers. When people like RME and MOTU took up the usb baton they made the proverbial silk purse from it!

We have seen mention of the fabulous performance possible with ethernet. Now I do not have a clue how that "works" but as with all things computer, it does not matter much HOW it does things so long as it does them FAST enough! .....Enter usb 3.0.

Just my 2penn'oth.

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
The above is, AFAIK all true. Now I am FAR from any computer guru but this is what I have gleaned over some 7 years.

Yes, usb relies on the PC to do most of the work and early PCs did not have enough grunt to run many tracks. That is no longer the case and even a modest PC today is 2-3G dual core 4G ram and can handle quite decent load, certainly enough for the home studio jockey.

FW has most of the processing in the box and so can run more tracks (akin to PCI) but this makes it more expensive $ per track (this is quite apart from the fact that there was really only one, TI, chipset that would run FW audio and even then some laptop MOBOs simply did not have the grunt. As I said, I have been lurking and looking for 7 years and it is only in the last two or so that the Fussywire compatibilty horrors have about ceased).
But it emerged about 2yrs ago that much of the "problem" with usb audio was not intrinsic to the protocol it was poor original design and even worse drivers. When people like RME and MOTU took up the usb baton they made the proverbial silk purse from it!

We have seen mention of the fabulous performance possible with ethernet. Now I do not have a clue how that "works" but as with all things computer, it does not matter much HOW it does things so long as it does them FAST enough! .....Enter usb 3.0.

Just my 2penn'oth.

Dave.
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When I bought a firewire PCI card for my computer, I just went to Best Buy or Comp USA and spent $10 or $15. Luckily it had the TI chipset, and I never had any issues.

When I bought a laptop dedicated for audio, I shopped for a model that specifically had firewire and the TI chip, ended up with a Sony Vaio. Again, no problems.

I had come from using a PCI interface in the late 90s, an 8 channel Hoontech C-Port which was also a nice bit of kit. A few years later I bought a Phonic Helix 18 board with firewire connectivity. When I moved to an Alesis ADAT HD24 as my recorder, I bought the Alesis Fireport interface to get the tracks onto the computer. And later still, picked us a used M-Audio Profire Lightbridge interface, which I still use an my main external audio card for my laptop.

People draw their conclusions based on their personal experiences, good and bad. For me, firewire technology has worked great.
 
Yo Tom!
You knew what you were doing (or were lucky!) and are in any case obviously a pretty clued up guy.
The problem was that FW AIs were sold as "universal" and it was very soon apparent that this was far form the case. Most vendors did not have clue one and many manufacturers were very unhelpful.

One of the really serious, but thankfully rare, problems with Firewire audio was a "digital" earth loop and this needs a top computer guy to get into the BIOS it seems to fix.

Glad you have been spared the pain of others Tom. I have never had any FW kit (PCI and usb me) and I shan't mourn its passing!

Dave.
 
Did you all catch the CES announcement about USB 3.0 speeds doubling to 10Gbps?

I'm writing something on it and thought I'd drop a line here too.
Is that the final nail in the Firewire coffin?
 
Kenith said:
wheelema,

Thanks for the USB 3 tip! Have been looking at USB mics. Any tips or links for upcoming USB 3 musical products (especially mics)?

Thanks again

Kenith
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Um think your missing the point here bud, mainly spekaing of USB interfaces, I think everyone here would agree that USB mic's just arent they way to go
 
jaynm26 said:
Um think your missing the point here bud, mainly spekaing of USB interfaces, I think everyone here would agree that USB mic's just arent they way to go
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I agree tho' I have never used one.
The usb mic concept seems to me a fairly good idea done badly! Virtually all the mics have 16bit converters and cheap ones at that. Then the mics are trying to compete at rock bottom price levels and so the electronics is unlikley to be so hot. I have found a couple of 24bit mics, AKG Perception 120 usb and the MXL USB.009, the latter claiming a dynamic range of 114dB, do for me!

Usb 3.0 is not a factor, usb 1.1 is plenty fast enough to run 24bits mono since of course there are plenty of two channel, 24bit 1.1 usb AIs.

My problem with usb 3.0 AIs is that the manfctrs seem to be sitting on their hands and not taking advantage of the much wider bandwidth (even as is) and greater power capability.

Dave.
 
wheelema said:
In all honesty this is not yet true, but it's inevitable. Hopefully we'll see USB 3.0 interfaces at CES in January and throughout 2013. USB 3.0 is already the de-facto standard on current motherboards whereas finding mobos with Firewire is getting harder.

I seriously would not buy a Firewire interface if I could hold off for a month or so.
Click to expand...

USB3 is also dead - long live Thunderbolt (four times faster than USB3) :thumbs up:
 
John Willett said:
USB3 is also dead - long live Thunderbolt (four times faster than USB3) :thumbs up:
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And four times more expensive? I doubt we mortals will see many "office" grade computers with Tbolt as was the case with Fussywire which was not that much of a problem since a large proportion of FW chipsets were "wrong" for audio.

And the FW devotees always forget that bus power on a laptop was like rocking horse droppings.

Vive usb 3.0. Promises to be the ONLY truly universal connection system that FW never was.

Dave.
 
John Willett said:
USB3 is also dead - long live Thunderbolt (four times faster than USB3) :thumbs up:
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It's not four times faster. USB3.0=10Gbps (not now, I don't think, but as previously stated, it's getting bumped up to that), and Thunderbolt=10Gbps
Haha, even prior to this, it was 5 Gbps, which is half, not a fourth... I dunno where you're getting these numbers.
 
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