EQ and peak levels (probable newb Q)

[Sifunkle]

Just come across something that strikes me as odd, but it might just be I'm overlooking something.

I'm EQing some tracks in Cubase LE (with its 4-band parametric EQ) and have observed this a few times. Taking the example of the kick drum I'm currently doing: If I put only cuts into the EQ profile (no boosts) and play it, the peak level it tells me for that channel is -7.8 dB. If I then bypass the EQ and play it, it tells me -8.5 dB. These aren't just one-offs either; I've repeated several times and it's pretty consistent, in terms of the peak levels it gives and their timing.

Surely that's not right... If I'm only making cuts, how can the sound intensity possibly increase?

My current hypotheses:

1. CPU problems causing mistakes - this seems unlikely as it's repeating the exact same pattern.
2. The frequencies I've removed were somehow moderating the level of other frequencies - am I ignorant of some physics concept here?
3. Cubase LE is stupid - suspect this is quite likely.

I'm really starting to hate EQing. I'm trying to use it to get rid of excess dB while preserving frequencies that are important to the instruments, and... well when something counter intuitive like this happens, I really lose confidence.

(And I suppose it doesn't help that I've only got my tinny laptop speakers, or bass-heavy headphones to monitor through. Out of interest, which would you use?)

Your thoughts? Or suggestions?

Appreciate it,

Si

 

[bouldersoundguy]

When you cut with eq it will lower the average level but often the peak level can rise if the signal had been processed at some point before, e.g. with a limiter. What happens is that at some point one frequency's wave is peaking on the negative side of the 0 line and another frequency is peaking on the positive side. When you filter out one of the two the other now rises just at that point in time (and any other point where the two frequencies were peaking in opposite directions). Your #2 hypothesis is essentially correct, and it works the same with all DAWs.

 

[Sifunkle]

Thanks for your response bouldersoundguy!

Wow! I had 'phase cancellation' going through my head, although I obviously didn't fully make the connection as you've outlined. Kinda happy it even occurred to me though (although I still resorted to blaming my tools like the poor workman I am ). With all of my crushing mixological inadequacy, I'm taking whatever small victories I can claim...

Any particular tips for getting a nice EQ without the levels going up too high? It seems like I can either have tone or volume but not both I guess after I get the tone right with EQ I can compress to get the level up, but I've already done a fair bit of compression and it might get a bit too much.

And am I going about it the wrong way to think of EQ as a potential route by which my overall level could be increased (by cutting out unnecessary freq's on each track)? I would say its other role is to distinguish instruments from each other (yeah?). Should I just ignore the level thing and just get the tones right?

 

[mixsit]

Not sure I got this right but it seems I've read that a cut at the center freq there can be a rise above and below center?

..and since I'm already out on a limb here, higher Q, bigger the bump?

 

[Steenamaroo]

does the eq have automatic makeup gain?

 

[mixsit]

I hate automatic make up gain. Get the the hell out'a my way please.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Not sure I got this right but it seems I've read that a cut at the center freq there can be a rise above and below center?

..and since I'm already out on a limb here, higher Q, bigger the bump?

That is also a real phenomenon, but I don't think it's what happened to the OP.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Thanks for your response bouldersoundguy!

Wow! I had 'phase cancellation' going through my head, although I obviously didn't fully make the connection as you've outlined. Kinda happy it even occurred to me though (although I still resorted to blaming my tools like the poor workman I am ). With all of my crushing mixological inadequacy, I'm taking whatever small victories I can claim...

Any particular tips for getting a nice EQ without the levels going up too high? It seems like I can either have tone or volume but not both I guess after I get the tone right with EQ I can compress to get the level up, but I've already done a fair bit of compression and it might get a bit too much.

And am I going about it the wrong way to think of EQ as a potential route by which my overall level could be increased (by cutting out unnecessary freq's on each track)? I would say its other role is to distinguish instruments from each other (yeah?). Should I just ignore the level thing and just get the tones right?

I would go back to basics. Use eq to make things sound good, not because of some iffy theory about getting more level. At any point in the process where you are applying filters you should have lots of headroom available. Do the final level adjustment last, and if it makes any eq stuff different go back a step and re-eq, then redo the level adjustment.