Engineer > Producer - DELUSIONAL MUSICIANS

E

ecs113

New member
How do I keep a friend from taking advantage of my studio kindness?

I offered to record some of his orginals (vocal + acoustic guitar) for a demo, and so that I could hone my engineering skills. Since we started, he now focuses on karaoke tracks to feature his singing, which should not be featured; all aspects of his vocals are terrible: voice quality, control, phrasing, diction, etc. He thinks he is a great vocalist and takes vocal lessons. He tries to mimic other vocalists, and does so miserably (though he thinks he does so better than the original vocalist). He doesn't listen to suggestions, even when he asks for them. I went into this as an engineer, and now he wants me to be a producer...

What was supposed to be a couple of sessions to record a few originals has turned into a weekly karaoke mess. Once we capture a take that sounds not as terrible, he hates it a week later and wants to do it over. That would be OK if I believed in what I was doing, but I have to try not to cringe during playback. It comes to the point when he asks for my opinion, and I can't tell him that I think he sounds awful.

Just as in my day job, I give a hand and he tears off my arm, eats it and wants a leg. He is starting to treat me like his personal engineer/producer.

I guess I know the solution - lay down the law. But how do you tell a friend who won't listen that their voice is terrible? that you can't polish a turd into gold? that their skills are turdly?

Sorry for the ramble, but this is quite an amazing mess I got myself into. I can't imagine how bad it would be if there was money involved - if I was actually getting paid for my time and energy.
 
ecs113 said:
How do I keep a friend from taking advantage of my studio kindness?...

...I can't imagine how bad it would be if there was money involved - if I was actually getting paid for my time and energy.
Click to expand...
Maybe thats the key.
Explain to him that you have an incredible investment in time and money, and that you went into this to get a return on that investment.
Tell him his constant re-takes are draining your resources, and while he's welcome to use the studio, you simply can't do it for free anymore.
 
I have to agree with Michael.

You offered to record some of his originals, not become his personal studio rat.

There's no other place he could go that wouldn't charge him. You've given him enough free time, now he needs to pay for it. This does not make you a bad person or a bad friend - on the contrary, it sounds like you have put up with enough of your unthinking friends' demands on your time.

And when you set your price to record him, make sure you up it about 35% to compensate you for the fresh hell you are signing up for.

but then again, maybe the idea of paying for your time will tighten him up and make him work and think. I was an indifferent student in high school, but I was an A student in college - because I was *paying* for it.

good luck.

- housepig
 
Thanks for the replies. How do you suggest I tell this sensitive artist that his singing is awful? I have told him that maybe he should sing in his own voice rather than try to mimic other's (which he does terribly), and he doesn't listen. He asked what I thought of his "grind" voice, which is more voice cracking than smokey grind, and I told him that it sounds like his voice is cracking, and he doesn't listen. If it was a stranger, it may be easier, but this a delusional, sensitive friend with a bubble so big, I don't want to be the one to burst it.

In general, how do you tell people that what they are doing does not sound "good"? All the tech knowledge in the world doesn't help with this aspect of recording...

Thanks again for you help.
 
Post his stuff on the mp3 mixing clinic looking for comments on "recording quality". Let the folks at homerecording BBS do your dirty work.:D
 
Exactly, do what fprod south said, have them comment on everything and print it off and show him what people think of it? Good luck.
 
I for one will tell him what a great singer he is and whoever has been engineering and producing him is doing a great job and he better stick with him because they make a great team.
 
Yah, you are in deep kimchee. Don't tell him he sucks, that's the producer's job, and *don't* become his producer. If he wants to track, just set a reasonable hourly rate, and tell him tou're not a producer. You can't present reality to people who won't accept it, so don't kill yourself trying.-Richie
 
First off, DO NOT do another session for free unless you currently have one scheduled that way. After that, make it clear that it won't be for free after that.

Next, you need to define the working relationship (providing that he is going to pay you to at least engineer). I always charge extra to produce. If the client don't want to pay that fee, that is their business. I found clients to be far more serious, and take my comments far more seriously when they are paying for them. You have to define between what an engineers job is and the producers job is. Engineers typically can work in many different ways with a producer. Some producers leave it to the engineer to find the sound that work on their own and present them to the producer for approval (this can work out great if the producer hasn't already thought he can get the sound a certain way and is looking for a fresh perspective). Other times, the engineer is simply trying to achieve the sound the producer wants with what is available. This relieves the engineer of a lot of the decision process, but can be a bitch IF the producer is unable to articulate effectively the type of sound he is after, or is unrealistic about the capabilities of the studio and/or artist.

Often, in a situation where you are working with an artist that is going to produce themselves, if they start making technical decisions that you feel are flawed, it is good to ask "are you sure that is what you want?" as unjudgemental as possible. If they ask why you asked that, you can explain what you think the problem is. DO NOT judge performances EXCEPT for how they relate to anything technical. If you are expected to autotune a vocal, and the vocal is too far off to autotune later, you can certainly speak up about that. But after that, it is none of your business what the producer feels is a good take.

If you are going to offer producing services, you have a whole new set of things to deal with. There are clients I have worked well with that I would never in a million years produce. As an engineer, I provide them with what they want. But what they want and what my vision is in these cases can be VERY different. If we discuss the possibilities of me producing them, I try to be very straight up with where I think they are at musically speaking and how I envision their sound. If they show indications that they don't agree with that, producing talk ends right then and there. They either feel my ideas are best for them or they don't. I have mostly given up trying to convince artists to pursue a different approach in these cases. The few times they have "gone along" with me, they wind up giving half asses efforts in ANY changes I apply to what they are doing. It just doesn't work out. If the client can't give me 110% effort when I produce them, and to pursue ALL ideas I give them with a enthusiasitic attitude then it is a waste of time. I learned that the hard way.

If they DO agree to let you actually "produce" them, you have to make it very clear upfront what you want to do with what they are doing. Producing is hard work, and twice as hard when you are also the engineer. Expect to put a LOT of effort in, and you must expect them to match that effort! In the end, you might end up caring a little more than they did in what you are doing, and that is okay. But if you care FAR more than they do, the relationship is not a good one and your own integrity comes into play at this point. You should take the "higher road" and just end the agreement to produce and offer to just engineer.

It is about defining the relationship. Too many times band and engineers cross over lines they never should with each other. When I am not paid to produce, I have much better success keeping my mouth shut and working hard as an engineer. I try to anticipate what they producer (client) wants and have that ready. I try to gleefully provide any changes they want. I work hard for THEM. Indeed, they may make a LOT of mistakes, but, if you let them make their own decisions you certainly are not going to get the blame for those mistakes. In a case where you do, you have a very clear indication that they are not somebody you will work with again, and you shouldn't. Try not to worry too much about what they might say to others about you. I have found that musicians hear other peoples mistakes much better than they hear their own, and somebody bitching about the "suckass engineer" usually in the end proves to those they are bitching to that they probably had more to do with what sucked than the engineer did. You know what I mean? :) I used to take it personally and would go to great lengths to defend myself. I find that people respond better when I DON'T try to defend myself when wrongfully accused of screwing up the recording. Making simple comments like " I did things EXACTLY the way the client wanted" is defense enough and people get the point and you don't look overly critical by saying that. You appeared to give the client exactly what they wanted.

Anyway, don't record friends for free. :)

Ed
 
Got to agree with Ed - totally.

no more for free.

no more producing if he's not paying for it.

if you're not the producer, the fact that he sucks is immaterial.

and the fact that he's your friend... well, I learned after the first time I had to fire a friend from a band - "friends are friends, and business is business".

If he can't hang with that, tell him you'll be happy to go shopping with him while he picks up his own studio rig...

good luck.

- housepig
 
Thank you very much for your replies, and experiential insight. I was brought up to be generous and giving. Not good attributes for surviving in the real world.

I am offering free 20min produced audio for local musicians (experience builder), so I am going to limit him to that. I am going to clarify my role as engineer, non-producer, and that he needs to take responsibility in decisions.

Sucks, but I have to do it. I know he's not going to like it or respect it, but f him. Why can't people be cool?

Thanks again. Your thoughts are valuable to me.
 
"I was brought up to be generous and giving. Not good attributes for surviving in the real world. "

I know that feeling :)

I was in a christian metal band for a few years and when we broke up I got into recording. Here in Columbus, OH the christian music scene is very tight knit and I often work with my old guitarist on his new projects. However he's starting to go overboard, and it was mostly a matter of saying, "hey, unless you pay me more I have to work on other people to" he got the picture really quick and we're finishing up a 7 song demo this week... but I also get to try my hand at distribution with it :) ...and he does free graphic artwork for me... He knows it's a trade, my services for his. This is also the last time for "discount" work though. Everyone wants everything for free... it's only natural. But he realizes my life doesn't revolve around him....but he's no longer a vocalist too :)
 
"I was brought up to be generous and giving. Not good attributes for surviving in the real world. "

No, these are great attributes, and you should hang on to them.

But there's a line between being generous and giving, and being such a saint that pigeons come down on your shoulders and shit all over your shirt.

Being generous and standing up for yourself are not mutually exclusive. It's not you, it's him. He's being self-centered in a way that overlooks your needs, and takes advantage of you.

He can only do that as long as you let him. Stop letting him.

- housepig
 
Some people whom you think of as friends are not really "friends" at all. Sometimes you have to let the chips fall where they may and lose a "friend" if necessary. Life is hard enough without having to deal with fake friends. If they are truly a friend, they will not take offense at a reasonable request from a friend. You will find the truth shortly, I would imagine, if you take control of the issue.
 
ecs113 said:
How do I keep a friend from taking advantage of my studio kindness?

Just as in my day job, I give a hand and he tears off my arm, eats it and wants a leg.
Click to expand...

You call this person a friend?

I don't get it.
 
Limitations of the English language (or my knowledge of it) I guess. More than an acquaintance, less than a friend.

I told him the I will RECORD ONE demo, and that's it.
 
tell this guy he sucks, tell him you don't want to record him for free anymore, tell him you're still friends with him, but this is business, and you've gotta pay the rent.
 
I just went through a "similar" situation with a friend... I was recording a cheap demo and it was getting drug out too long.

I said "You get one more 6 hour day and then I need to work on other projects."

But one of the problems is that my friend was nitpicking the demo too much and adding a load of parts (I'll deal with an extra guitar) but he was adding keyboards and more backup vocals)...and the other members were getting frustraited and the bassest sucked...and I basically wanted out before they selfdestructed ...so it was for their own good :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top