Ears

Layla Nahar

New member
I have the hardest time telling what chords I'm hearing, and what is I (Do).

I *have* been able to say "Oh - this chord progression sounds alot like the one in (song y)" and I'll be right, or really close, but just listening and saying, that's Do (or I) , that's V, that's bVII. I also have a hard time matching just matching individual chord tones (bass tone, in particular) and picking them out on the guitar. This is very depressing for me!

anybody got any advice for me? I've been learning for about 1.5 years


ps: what about a list of better interval mnemonics?
I like "Here comes the bride" for P4 up, and "N Bee Cee" for 1,6,4.
After that, a lot don't work for me.
 
Some people can play by ear and others can't... playing by ear comes natural for some people, and some have to work at it, while others never get it. Just hang in there and keep doing your best... sometimes it just takes a while to train your ear... in the mean time don't get flustered, take your time, enjoy playing and have fun.
 
Yeah, if it doesn't come naturally to you, then you just have to work at it like anything else.

Learning music theory will definitely help. There is a finite number of chord progressions and the number that are actually used in popular music is fairly small.

Also, you might have a musician friend or teacher quiz you on intervals. Have someone play two notes and then you try to name the interval (do this with all the intervals). You can do this with whatever instrument you have handy (a guitar or piano, etc.). If you can get to the point where someone plays an A then a D and you recognize that as a fourth... you are making progress.

If you can train your ear to recognize the intervals, sussing out chords will be alot easier. Because, after all, a chord is just an aggregate of intervals.
 
Practice, practice, practice. It is the only thing which works. There is no easy way to learn this stuff, because it is a biological issue. Just practice, and eventually, it becomes easy. Kinda like learning to hit a baseball, or shoot a free throw, or write a complete sentence, or even a run on sentence like this one. Just keep practicing, don't get discouraged, and have fun with it.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
A guitar instructor that I had many years ago had a good and easy solution. I had the exact problem. He told me to start playing my scales and hum to them. It gets your mind to relate making the sound with hearing the sound, with playing the sound. It kind of syncs your brain and it does work. You should also use an accoustic guitar tuner and hum, so that you brain knows exactly what a 440 "A" is.

Once you get humming and playing in sync, then, anything that you can hum, you will be able to play. Get the letter "A" out of your brain and replace it with Hmmmm.
 
There are two parts to chord recognition.

1. Is it major or is it minor?

2. What's the bass note?

The bass parts of most popular songs fall within the diatonic chord structure (a $2 way of saying chords based on the scale).

Once you know how a major scale works (i.e. the 7 notes that make up a major scale before they start to repeat themselves), it becomes easy to spot what's coming next.

The individual notes of a scale are commonly referred to by the number of where they fall in the scale and Roman numerals are used to identify them.
So a I is the root, a II is the next note up the scale and so on. For a 'C' major scale, it would be:
I = C Maj7
II = D Min7
III = E Min7
IV = F Maj7
V = G7
VI = Amin7
VII = Bmin7b5

These parts of teh harmonized scale are also either major, minor or dominant as I've listed above (don't worry too much about the exotics - hungarian lydian, diminished gregorian and all that crap is just smoke and mirrors - if it's not major or minor, it's some kind of dominant).

For example, you already know a I, IV, V song. In fact, you already know lots of them - most blues tunes are some form of a I, IV, V. Johnny B Goode, Statesboro Blues et al.

You also know (or can easily find) a whole bunch of I, VI, II, V tunes such as Blue Moon, and virtually every '50s ballad.

The way to start is to try and hear the bass note - it will give you the progression and off you go.

Then it's just practise.

Practise


Practise















Oh - did I mention practise?


;)
 
For example, you already know a I, IV, V song. In fact, you already know lots of them - most blues tunes are some form of a I, IV, V. Johnny B Goode, Statesboro Blues et al.


I'm no theory expert, but excuse me? If a person ear trains to the diatonic scales, and then reads and plays from roman numeral notation as shown( I, IV, V ) for a blues...... :eek: :confused:NOT!! A blues is based on dominant 7ths. This implys all the scale tone chords are extended to a seventh. The only roman numeral that is a dominant seventh is a V. I and IV are major sevenths. Johnny B Goode would sure sound wierd using MAJOR SEVENTHS. To notate the blues in Roman Numerals, you have to EITHER alter the I and IV to a dominant, or THINK in terms of all chords as a V in different keys. For instance, since I and IV are MAJOR chords, HOW would you notate this correctly IF it were a MINOR BLUES, and had other altered chords? This is why people who don't know the 60 chord system can get confused with standard Nashville notation. Not only that, if you think about it, to play within appropriate scales(besides pentatonics)to a standard blues tunes, ALL the chords ARE a V in different keys. For instance, here is a blues in A.
(D)V (G)V (A)V But that gets confusing, no? Hence alteration of the scale tone I and IV chords to a dominant seventh. Otherwise, its the same concept as a round of Fifths, which is why every chord is a V.

Here is an example of an UNALTERED notation for a famous Freddie King blues(12 bars only)in strict Roman Numerals.

IV I IV V I IV #IV I VI II V I V
Play those extended to a seventh, and tell me it sounds like the blues. :rolleyes: Let alone notating a SHARPED DIMINSHED CHORD!


Here is an altered version of notation with extensions.
IVx Ix9 IVx V/13 Ix IVx #IVo Ix13 VI IIx V/13 I V/+9

That is a very simple illustration. The system allows to notate complex chord changes in ANY key, any alteration, any extention, AND substitutions. For example: Here are some arbitrary chords for illustration ONLY. Some will be substitutions with deleted 3rds, although the format here isn't illustration friendly for it, or for notation of bass lines and some alterations, like a Half diminished=oo
4/4(105bpm) Im IVx/11 Im IVx/11 V/V+5-9 1m/oo bV11 IIx/oo IV/Vm11 VIm11 IIIx-5-9 bIIx13 (rpt3)
(cda) V1x #V1o IM/m
Im IIx V/V+5-9 Im/oo bV11 IIoo V/Vm11 V1M III+5-9 b1m 11 (rpt2)cda
Im IIx V/V+5-9 1m(rpt2)(rtd.2nd IMm
These are direct extentions and alterations. The system allows descriptions of altered chords via substutions, although it is beyond the scope of this forum to delve into it AND its been a looooooong time since I did. If you are interested in the 60 chord system, there is a 4 book collection written by Bill Evans, the famous jazz pianist. I never made it past the second book :rolleyes: If you get them, you will see why. :confused: :p Thats why I am not an expert on the subject. But I've been using this system as I know it for 20 yrs.
fitZ
 
fitZ2 said:
Here is an altered version of notation with extensions.
IVx Ix9 IVx V/13 Ix IVx #IVo Ix13 VI IIx V/13 I V/+9

That is a very simple illustration.
fitZ

:confused: Thank god I can play by ear, I thought I understood foo!
 
Look into this:

http://www.perfectpitch.com/relativepitch.htm

The course not only helps you learn the intervals by ear, but also by the actual note (a perfect fifth of A is E, a major third of D is F#, etc.). You will learn chord inversions and just about all music theory, and you will also be able to write down music you hear in your head. This falls under the phrase "relative pitch". The other course is "Perfect Pitch" which isn't necessary for ear training and takes much longer to develop.
 
What is this 60 chord system?

Hello ahuimanu, I am NOT an expert on theory, but here is the SIMPLE explanation of the 60 Chord system. Let me give you a little, although maybe not scientifically, but somewhat correct background first.
An Octave can be divided into an arbitrary quantity of tones. I say arbitrary, because in other cultures, the octave is divided into many different divisions, based on emotions, history, religion, culture, myth and other arbitrary reasons. Like in India, I believe the Octave is divided into over 100 tones.
In Western civilization music, the octave is divided into 12 tones by reason of MAHTEMATICS. Hence the name 12 tone system. Because of the evolution of mathematical tuning of these divisions, we can play in 12 keys today.
The original 12 tone division of an octave was devised by Pathagoras(proof of right triangle), although was altered mathimatically through time. During the early stage of tuning development, you could only play in ONE key. AND, the there was no standard for which tone was the starting point. At some point, 440-442hz became the standard for the Pitch we call "A".
During this evolution of divisions, 7 of these tones were to become what we know today as a diatonic scale. (Do, Re, Mi, Fa, So, La, Ti -octave Do)(Early pianos had ONLY octaves of these 7 tones.) During the early Christian history, certain combinations of these tones were actually banned by the Roman Catholic church, as they were thought to be inspired by the devil.
It is because of cultural indoctrination of these tones, that we become accustomed to our 12 tone system during childhood. It is NOT automatic. That is why other systems sound foriegn to our ears.

Original notation of a diatonic scale was for ONE octave.
A B C D E F G
As the evolution of tuning evolved, all 12 tones were to become what is known today as the CHROMATIC SCALE. But because labling of 7 tones had already been in use for centurys, and evolution of the piano, some of these notes became labled as SHARPS and FLATS(enharmonic) Hence:
A A#(Bb) B C C#(Db) D D#(Eb) E F F#(Gb) G G#(Ab)
At some point, construction of the Diatonic Scale could be built from the Chromatic Scale, on all 12 tones, by use of the following TONE STEP formula:
W W 1/2 W W W 1/2
where W= WHOLE TONE(or step)
1/2= HALF TONE(or 1/2 step)
There are many other formula for construction of other scales. However, for the sake of simplicity, I will stick to the DIATONIC.
Jumping a bunch of history, it was found that combinations of notes created what we know of today as CHORDS. Eventually, formulas for the creation of these combinations based on EACH DIATONIC SCALE were developed.

It was found that a combination of the FIRST, THIRD, and FIFTH tones of the Diatonic scale were the most pleasing.(arbitrary explanation)It is because of the OVERTONE tonal similarity that this occurs.
This combination became labled as a MAJOR chord.
The formula is 1-3-5
When you FLAT the THIRD, it now becomes a MINOR chord.
Hence...............1-b3-5
When you FLAT the FIFTH, it becomes a DIMINSHED chord.

These combinations are known as QUALITIES. There are TWO other qualities, however, the construction of the chords must be extended to the SEVENTH tone of the diatonic scale.
When you extend the previous qualities to a seventh STEP of the diatonic scale, you end up with these. I will use the Key of C as an illustration.
1 3 5 7 C E G B This is a MAJOR SEVENTH CHORD.
1 3 5 b7 C E G Bb This is a DOMINANT SEVENTH, as the 7 is flatted.
1 b3 5 b7 C Eb G B This is a MINOR SEVENTH, as both the 3 and 7 are flatted.
1 b3 b5 b7 C Eb Gb Bb This is a HALF DIMISHED, as the 3, 5 and 7 are ALL flatted.
1 b3 b5 bb7 C Eb Gb A This is a DIMINISHED, as the 3 and 5 are flatted, and the 7 is DOUBLE flatted.

This creates FIVE QUALITIES of CHORDS.
MAJOR, MINOR, DOMINANT, 1/2 DIMINISHED, DIMINISHED

These qualities are all based on intervals of MAJOR and MINOR THIRDS.

Hence........5 qualities x 12 keys= 60 CHORDS!! ;)

Learn all 5 qualities of chords with the ROOT TONE based on the 12 Chromatic TONES, and you will begin to see.
Learn these qualities on every place on the fretboard, and you will be on your way to knowing your fretboard.
Learn ALL 7 of the SCALE TONE SEVENTH CHORDS in ALL TWELVE KEYS, and you will begin to HEAR where progressions are going.
SCALE TONE SEVENTH CHORDS are based on extending each chord to a SEVENTH STEP, using the diatonic scale: Starting from C, build the FIRST DIATONIC SCALE.

C (W) D (W) E(1/2)F(W) G(W)A(W)B(1/2)---(octave!) C

Do this with ALL 12 Chromatic scale, MEMORIZE THEM, learn them at ALL 8 positions on the fretboard, and you will have become FAMILIARIZED with your fretboard.

Now build the chords from EACH of the 7 DIATONIC SCALE tones Starting with C(no flats or sharps)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (1)
C D E F G A B (C)
I 1357 CEGB "C" MAJOR SEVENTH
II 2461 DFAC "D" MINOR SEVENTH(build a "D" scale to see why
III 3572 EGBD "E" MNOR SEVENTH(build an "E" scale to see why
IV 4613 FACE "F" MAJOR SEVENTH(same as I in an F scale
V 5724 GBDF "G" DOMINANT SEVENTH(build a "G" scale to see why
VI 6135 ACEG "A" MINOR SEVENTH((build an "A" scale to see why
V11 7256 BDFA "B" HALF DIMINISHED(build a "B" scale to see why

Build, Memorize and Play in all positions on the fretboard, and you will have begun you journey on the 60 Chord system. Enjoy. PS, if you can figure out why there are no DIMINISHED chords in the diatonic system, you will have figured out what I have told you.

fitZ
 
Good Lord...

I didn't know you could develop perfect pitch, I thought you either had it on didn't. I know my vocal range, and can use that to approximate a low G, but to nail it on the head seems impossible.

Other folks, who really can't sing well, can belt out "Born Free" or "Enter Sandman" and nail the key every time, even after singing a song in another key. baffling.
 
Perfect pitch means that you can sing the pitch by recognizing its "pitch color", and you can recognize that pitch on its own without hearing pitches before it.

Relative pitch allows you to guage what the next pitch is based on the previous one.

So, all you need is to hear one pitch in order to sing the rest in key. In taking the "Relative Pitch" course, you will develop a refined ear to sing in tune, which is the main difference between a good vocalist and a bad one.

It took me about a year to finish the relative pitch course, and can attest to its effectiveness. The theory tends to fade if you don't keep up with it, but if you keep yourself involved with playing an instrument, the benefits stay with you.

For example, I took the relative pitch course about six years ago and hadn't really thought about what I learned. Last night I was given a piece of music to work with for a collaboration, and after hearing it twice I was able to replicate the majority of it without hunting for chords on the fretboard.
 
But, who was it that decided 440 cycles per second was middle A? And does a person with "perfect" pitch have to be within, say, five cycles to be perfect? So, we all have imperfect pitch. :D

But really, who decides these things?
 
But really, who decides these things?

Merely international consensus. It has the advantage of being an easily remembered number, but there have been other standard As over the centuries. The baroque A, if I remember, was 435Hz, but I was much younger then....
 
A 440 was set by an act of Congress, in the United States. I don't remember what year, but it was quite a while ago.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light said:
A 440 was set by an act of Congress, in the United States. I don't remember what year, but it was quite a while ago.


Light

Why should this surprise me? We can't have out of tune music in this under-regulated world we live in, now, can we?
 
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