Dynamic mics and preamps

bubbagump

bubbagump

New member
I have seen it mentioned all over the place that for dynamic mics to really shine you need 'a good preamp'. I don't know how many times guys have called an SM57 junk for recording (not a comentary on the vitues of a 57 by any means) with a reply that through 'good preamps' they are gold. The question I have is, what does 'have a good preamp' mean? Are we talking about something that can give a lot of clean gain (which is what everone wants in a pre)? Or is it an impedance thing? I use an SM7 as one of my main vocal mics and am wondering what to look for in a pre to support it. Sound is of course the #1 concern, but then again, here we are on HomeRec and I need to pay a mortgage each month. At the risk of sounding like a newbie, I am asking for a technical answer to what will inevitably be a subjective question. :)
 
Like you, I've also wondered how far you have to step up before a 57 will really shine through. More specifically, I'm interested in whether or not something like the Sytek MPX-4A is good enough, or do I have to make an order at Mercenary to get what I'm looking for.

Maybe your question would be better answered by others if you gave a few indications of any particular pres that you're looking at in different price ranges.
 
Okay, but supposing I want to worry :) and keep an open mind and not spend $2500.... ;) What is it that makes a dynamic shine specifically?
 
dynamics and preamp

Read this:

http://www.mojopie.com/vtb1.html

It's another opinion that gets to what you are talking about...
The reviewer noticed that on dynamic mics, this budget preamp had some performance characteristics reminicent of what expensive preamps will do. I was intrigued by it, and went to my local music dealer to hear it for myself. I've never tracked with an expensive pre before, so take my own comments with a grain of salt, but i think there is truth to what he is saying in his review. I did notice an improvent in sound specifically with dynamic mics (and MUCH LESS so with the condensors i tried) over 3 other cheap preamps i tried...enough so that i bought one. I used a sennheiser e609 and an sm57 to do the comparisons.

T
 
The DMP3 might be the right choice for a modest preamp.

I understand they operate with the Burr-Brown IC, same as my Rane MLM series do. I get very nice work from my SM57 through the Rane units.
 
I appreciate the replys, and I know who the contendors are in the <$200 preamp category. That really isn't what I am gettin gat. I am more interested in what it is specifically about a pre that makes it work well with a dynamic mic. Is it an impedance thing like with ribbons etc.? A gain thing? The fact they use a particular opamp? Transformers? All of the above? Just tons of clean gain? There has to be other pres that work better than average with a dynamic mic other than the Great Rivers. I am not looking for models or brand names necessarily. :)
 
I don't know all the specifics involved in it either . . .

but from what I gather, it is mostly an impedence thing; how a particular preamp will load a mic down.

Keep in mind this is just from my experience, but I've had noticeably better luck when plugging a dynamic mic in to something that has a transformer input. Even if it's a budget-range pre. I've tried it with a Presonus MP-20 w/ Jensen transformer and even a Bellari RP-220 modded w/ Jensen transformer, and I've noticed it even with them.

I suppose something like a John Hardy M2 or similar would really be nice to have around if you have a lot of good dynamics mics.
 
I'd love a good explanation as well. I've been thinking about getting an outboard pre (using mackie 1202 now) for some time, but I just have this fear that I'm going to sink a lot of money into something and not hear a difference.

I mean, I'm sure if I bought one of those $2500 pres I'd hear a difference, but that's about two years worth of audio purchases for me, if even that. And I don't record *that* many live instruments.

So it's hard to know in the <$1000 range if there's really anything worth the money and why.
 
Don't get me wrong. I am not looking for a cheap pre. I am looking for what makes a pre work well with dynamic mics. It is is because of left hand wound pure gold transformers mounted with a glue gun? I want to know that. Yeah, $2500 is steep, but if that is what I have to do to make a mic work, so be it. I just save a bit longer. Let's not even think about money here or 'have you tried a Focusrite XYZ model pre?' For instance, I know ribbon mics work better on a low impedance input. Is a similar thing true with dynamics? It is sort of a silly thing really. >50% of the mics out there are dynamics, so you would think this would be a more discussed topic. Sure, the clarity of a pre in stage use may not be as noticable/critical as in the studio, but I would think there is some info out there on what makes one pre work well with a dynamic and others not. Or maybe this is a Big Thread type question. What makes a pre amp tick and how does that relate to everything?
 
You may want to ask your question over on "The Rack" board... some of the heavy weights pop in on that board from time to time who most likely could answer your question with more details... unless it involed giving up some of their trade secrets. :)

PS... use the word "Transformer" in your subject title... that usually gets their attention. For example... "Preamp Transformers & Etc". ;)
 
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I would assume that you could call up one of the guys who make these things and they'd be more than happy to give you their views.

I have to warn you, however, that you're not likely to get one solid, unified answer -- as every designer/manufacture usually has different theories on it than the next guy. :D One guy might think that a dynamic needs to see a higher impedence in order to bring out the necessary detail . . . while the other guy might think it needs to see a lower impedence in order to perform the way it was designed. If you're lucky, you might come out somewhat more enlightened -- but very likely more confused -- than before you called.

I would start with John Hardy and Dan Kennedy. Seriously, just look 'em up and give them a call. They're both very knowlegable, very approachable, and willing to explain this kind of stuff if they have the time on their hands to talk. Especially if they think you might be in the market for their product.

The answers I have gotten have been all over the board, and I've talked to some of the senior designers at Summit Audio . . . I've also spoken with John Hardy, Dan Kennedy, Jim Williams (Audio Upgrades) just to name a few more.

My conclusion was that there really aren't any answers to what makes a dynamic mic perform better with one pre over another, so I'm assuming that it's some combination of voodoo witchcraft or just plain hot air. All I know is that through informal testing, the pres I like on dynamics have transformers in them. That's good enough for me.
 
i think it is also a question of gain. some cheaper pres have a way of not sounding so good when pushed. my presonus pres come to mind here.

i have to crank them up almost all the way to get my 441 to work for vocals... and the pres themselves seem to have some non-linearities in the response at this gain. or SOMETHING funky is going on, cause it doesnt sound as nice as my other pres.

however, when i use a high output mic i really dont notice a huge difference.

another reason that people with nicer pres like dynamic mics more is that i think as things get more hi-fi in a studio IN GENERAL- and people with nice pres tend to have nicer stuff thru the signal chain- the more you need a splash of color here and there. a nice selection of dynamics can give you that.

like if you have a cassette 4 track mics like the C1 sounding just AMAZING. they really cut through all that stuff between the mic and the ear on playback. but with a nicer signal chain, you start hearing some stuff that you arent so pleased with, and suddenly the sm57 seems like a good choice again.
 
Chessrock, thanks. Your answer what I was sort of afraid of. I was hoping a nice 'they work better with impedence X' would be the answer. Time to start experimenting me thinks. :) But I'll drop into the rack board and see what folks have to say. And I will be sure to work 'transformer' in somewhere. :D
 
The SM57 sounds "good' with a VTB-1 and even better with a Shure 545 series (generally speaking) for vocals IMHO.

IIRC Chessrock rated the SM7/VTB-1 combo as "pretty good" in the past. Is that right?

Keep in mind that until you hit the technical level of a legitimate
(like a Broadway headliner) singer with a trained vibrato, most all
singers (like myself!) need to be primarily concerned with the pure performance aspect, and staying in key over "which pre".
And the room's sound quality is also a big factor BTW.

Personal taste is also a factor in pre's.
I like having a "clean" and one with coloration, for example.

If you can wait a few weeks, I suspect the new revised Joe Meeks
will be the next "big thing" with homereccers for a number of reasons.

Chris
 
And one more thing...

A pro AE heavyweight (Bob Ohlsson) tried out the humble M-Audio
DMP2 and thought one excellent vocal chain would be;

SM57>DMP2>RNC compressor.

The VTB-1 and DMP3 are both somewhat superior to the DMP2 IMHO so either should be an upgrade IMHO.

Still think you should wait if you can to compare to the Meeks
though.

Chris
 
I have a Meek VC3 ProChannel, but I am not so sure how great of a pre it has really. It was sort of a cheapo unit and I don't know how it compares to the rest of their line.
As for getting a performance on key, um, I don't worry too much about that. I mostly record my girlfriend and she is usually pretty right on. http://www.krististrauss.com She sings opera and teaches voice professionally. We also have our little pop project which I linked to above. I feel like a heel running her through junk. I have been in the recording game for about 6 years now and have decided it is time to break down and get some decent gear.
 
The Joe Meek is really good for recording loud sources -- basically because it has a ton of headroom and it's tough to make it crap out. On quieter things, it's really iffy. It has an unusually high amount of noise and various other artifacts when you crank the gain up too high. It's a decent pre though -- and the comp and EQ are pretty cool.
 
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