DSP card or CPU/mobo upgrade? Advice please.

B

bbundy96

New member
To start, here's my basic computer setup:
P4 1.8A gHz with 1gig PC800 RAM.
30 gig WD harddrive (7200 rpm)(programs)
100 gig WD special edition HD (dedicated music storage)
MOTU 24i
Sonar 1.0x

As it stands, I can record/playback 24 tracks easily as long as they have minimal plug-ins (i.e. EQ, compression, NO reverbs). It doesn't tax my CPU all that much. RAM is barely even tapped.

If I start adding in a few reverbs to 4 or 5 tracks, my CPU is taxed an easy 90% with just 10 tracks recorded and my RAM is barely tapped. One computer buddy of mine suggested an upgrade to P4's latest HTT CPUs, but I am not a fan of spending $700 on a CPU/mobo upgrade now when I know that price will be slashed drastically in the coming months.

Does anyone have an opinion on DSP cards/plug-in packages? How good are the plug-ins that are packaged with the card? How well does the card process reverb and other effects? I am not really interested in bouncing tracks or switching to hardware effects. I'd rather spend 1500 on a DSP card that would last me a while than 700 on a CPU that will go out of style in a month.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Jim
StudioMix2002@hotmail.com
 
bbundy96 said:
One computer buddy of mine suggested an upgrade to P4's latest HTT CPUs, but I am not a fan of spending $700 on a CPU/mobo upgrade now when I know that price will be slashed drastically in the coming months.

Jim
StudioMix2002@hotmail.com
Click to expand...

Does it matter? A CPU will do the same for you as a DSP....
After a while your CPU won't be fast enough annymore, the same goes for the DSP. A CPU can be used for anny task a DSP only for recording. You can't upgrade a DSP but you can upgrade a mobo.

Hope that helps....:confused:

PEACE.........and Music
Henry
 
Last edited:
Re: Re: DSP card or CPU/mobo upgrade? Advice please.

FanTC® said:
Does it matter? A CPU will do the same for you as a DSP....
After a while your CPU won't be fast enough annymore, the same goes for the DSP. A CPU can be used for anny task a DSP only for recording. You can't upgrade a DSP but you can upgrade a mobo.

Hope that helps....:confused:

PEACE.........and Music
Henry
Click to expand...
I forgot.
You can put a DSP on a mobo...........

I mean DSP's are also rapidly followed by new versions....
 
I have one of the creamware dsp cards, and they are just as fast obsolete as a complete cpu.

It is also a myth that they do not load your pc. They may not use the cpu much, but they need the cpu to run their drivers, they use a big whack of the pci bus and quite some memory. And how much longer will the pci bus be with us?

Plug-ins for those cards are limited in choise compared to native plug-ins.

You can always later set up your obsolete pc as a file server for storing backups. If you want you could change it to a dedicated synth. Or as an effect box.
 
bbundy96 said:
If I start adding in a few reverbs to 4 or 5 tracks, my CPU is taxed an easy 90% with just 10 tracks recorded and my RAM is barely tapped.
Click to expand...
why would you need 4-5 reverbs ? Why not put them on the effects send bus. I doubt if you would ever need more than 2, maybe 3 'verbs....

dynamics & effects -> insert
ambience (delay&verb) -> sends


got me +30 tracks with comp and some VSTi's + Reason synths on an Athlon 2,200+


Herwig
 
DSP Card

I've got the Yamaha DSP Factory. Of course it was obsolete about 3 months after I bought it. When it works, it's great. 24 channels of compression.. gates .. effects... 4 band eq. Only supports 16 track playback, but I've not needed more than that ... yet. I can always add 8 channels of ADAT to the mix if I have to. Using it with a P3 at 1ghz & 320 mb ram. Nothing slows down & the useage meter in Logic hardly registers. The program I use to control the card is kinda flakey though. Things don't always save or activate when you want them to. C-Console 1.4. Kinda pricey, looks cool, lotta features but it don't always work.
 
Give DSP a chance!! :)

What about a pro tools HD2 or HD3, thats a DSP card that wont go out of date for a while (although its a bit more expensive ;))

If i was you i'd look at getting UAD1. I havent got one but the reviews ive seen have been excelent. I dont think you can realy class a MOTU 424 (which isnt a proper DSP card for what bbundy96 wants) or a Yamaha DSP Factory card in the same league asthe UAD1 or the TC Powercore. I seriously doubt these cards are going to be outdated very fast. Here a quote from a magazine reivew on the UAD1 'you can run three instanses of their Realverb Pro plug-in on a Pro Tools TDM Mix 24 system, and eight of the Powered Plug-in version on the UAD!' and it doesnt look like a 'lite' version.
FanTC® a CPU wont do the same as a DSP card. For starters a DSP card doesnt have to run an OS or recording program, it just runs the plug-in.
Atleast read some reviews of the new DSP cards before you discount them guys.
 
Re: Give DSP a chance!! :)

ColdAsh said:
What about a pro tools HD2 or HD3, thats a DSP card that wont go out of date for a while (although its a bit more expensive ;))

I seriously doubt these cards are going to be outdated very fast.
Click to expand...

Don't be so sure. There are serious plans in changing the PCI-buss completely!!
FanTC® a CPU wont do the same as a DSP card. For starters a DSP card doesnt have to run an OS or recording program, it just runs the plug-in.
Click to expand...

If you say a DSP won't do the same as a CPU than you're right. In fact a CPU has to do the same as a DSP otherwhise it won't work at all. Dedicated DSP only work for dedicated software that's right.

I dont think you can realy class a MOTU 424 (which isnt a proper DSP card for what bbundy96 wants) or a Yamaha DSP Factory card in the same league asthe UAD1 or the TC Powercore.
Click to expand...

I'm only trying to say that if you have a dedicated DSP it will only work for it's dedicated tasks. You can't use it for other things.

Greets
Henry
 
I have a UAD-1 DSP card. First I have to say that I DO love it, but...

the company is a joke, this is clearly NOT the same UA that brought us all the goodies back in the day.

The company copies other people's stuff, to the point where they even copy other companies adds, UI's, and even names...THEN they say that they werent influenced at all by the other companies name!!!! it is hillarious. For example, their new EQ, the Cambridge, looks EXACTLY the same as Masenburg's Oxford . Coincidence? yeah right

Then they have buck rodgers and some other DSP dweebs who have NEVER had to work in a studio in front of a customer designing completely useless user interfaces for the pieces that they DO create.

My latest joust with them is that they have on one of their compressors, an automatic gain compensation circuit which turns up the output gain to make up for the level reduction caused by the compressor, and NO option to turn it off!!!! I realize a lot of toy compressors have this, but it makes it useless if you are compressing stuff AFTER a peak, because now the peak will go thru the roof!

the best part is that deny the automatic gain compensation! here is a quote

"Pipeline- There is no auto gain compensation (AGC) on the EX-1/CS-1 compressor. There's an auto-makeup gain that keeps your output at a constant level as you increase the compression ratio. And since there's no degradation caused by multiplication in our DSP, don't worry about adjusting the output level yourself to tweak it. Nothing bad will happen.

"

oh sorry, auto make up gain!! it is the same shit you duface, turn it off!!!!!!!!!
Ever heard of digital distortion numbnutz? Turn the thingon and your meters go red on your master buss, what part of " nothing bad will happen " does that NOT violate???? And what happened to the prime directive: first do no harm ?

oh well...

this card DOES kickass in a lot of ways. The reverb sucks doggy doo but is still better than any native reverb. The Pultec, LA-2A, and 1176 are GREAT!!!! dark, but great. FOrget the amp sim for traditional sounds tho, it is a buck rodgers joke, doesnt even have a gain control ! But it lets you make new kindsa sounds pretty easily
 
FanTC® said:
Don't be so sure. There are serious plans in changing the PCI-buss completely!!
Click to expand...

Computer technoligy is always changing ther'es nothing you can do about it but a DSP card doesnt loose any performace just because there's something better. And it doesnt mean that the technoligy automaticaly becomes redundant (how long did the Mix farm cards last?). Please i'd love to know of anyone who has a computer that could beat the power of a computer + DSP card

If you say a DSP won't do the same as a CPU than you're right. In fact a CPU has to do the same as a DSP otherwhise it won't work at all. Dedicated DSP only work for dedicated software that's right.


I'm only trying to say that if you have a dedicated DSP it will only work for it's dedicated tasks. You can't use it for other things.
Click to expand...
I think you've completely missed my point here. The point i was trying to make is that a CPU has more of its reasourses used up by running things such as an OS and other applications so it cant be expected to be as powerfull as todays DSP cards. The whole idea of a DSP card is that it only works for dedicated tasks!!! Thatswhy they're called dedicated DSP cards, you dont buy them for anything but to run plug-ins.
 
ColdAsh said:
Computer technoligy is always changing ther'es nothing you can do about it but a DSP card doesnt loose any performace just because there's something better. And it doesnt mean that the technoligy automaticaly becomes redundant (how long did the Mix farm cards last?). Please i'd love to know of anyone who has a computer that could beat the power of a computer + DSP card
Click to expand...

Do you remember ISA 8bit, ISA 16bit, VESA local buss and PCI 1.0 ??. I have plenty cards that cost me $100 to $500 that are worth shit now.

I think you've completely missed my point here. The point i was trying to make is that a CPU has more of its reasourses used up by running things such as an OS and other applications so it cant be expected to be as powerfull as todays DSP cards. The whole idea of a DSP card is that it only works for dedicated tasks!!! Thatswhy they're called dedicated DSP cards, you dont buy them for anything but to run plug-ins.
Click to expand...

What are you talking about? My system is still asleep while OS is loaded. What OS do you use that uses up all your resourses? Or is it because of the DSP drivers?

The point is that CPU's are so powerfull nowadays that a DSP isn't always needed. And you can fill all your PCI slots with DSP's but the PCI-buss speed (33MHz) will be the bottleneck in your system. That's why the new PCI is on the drawing board. I would't advice annyone to buy an extremely expencive card at this moment. Unless they have too much money. And a CPU upgrade is verry easy and cheap.

Have a nice day
Henry
 
Last edited:
Just my thougts

FanTC® said:

What are you talking about? My system is still asleep while OS is loaded. What OS do you use that uses up all your resourses? Or is it because of the DSP drivers?
Have a nice day
Henry
Click to expand...
I also meant running your audio package, worring about reading/writing tracks maybe some virtual intruments and a few plug-ins (ones not run on the DSP). I didnt say this used up all of our reasourses jut some. Im sure most professionly would choose a protools setup with thier DSP cards over a realy fast computers (and i know that protools is much more high end then the DSP cards we're talking about)
I know theres a move to 96k or 196k but aslong as CDs are still so populare 44.1k (or maybe 48k) will do me fine.

Also so what if something becomes outdated. If you can still use it and it still does the job you want from it(the same job its always done) then there's no problem. Sure there will be better DSP cards in future which are more powerfull but that doesnt mean that the older ones will be worthless (although i conceed nothing lasts forever, especialy in computers). If you can get a few years out of them thats more than most people get out of their CPU.

But i do conceed that the PCI-buss speed could be a big bottle neck so waiting until they improve that might be a good idea.
 
I really WOULD like to see a non DSP system run a reverb that didnt sound like total crap...if it DOES have the horsepower for that, it would shut the dsp vs native debate down forever, but I dont seee it happening.
 
Most cpu's do have the power to run whatever reverb you want. The whole problem is money. If you make a serious reverb algorithm, you want to get as much income as you can out of it. And that is something you can better control on a dsp card.

The cpu has to run all the interfaces to the plug-ins running on the dsp card, the cpu has to control all data going in/to the card and the cpu has to display all the metering provided. So a dsp card is a serious load to the cpu. But the total is less than if it would have to run everything alone.
 
It sure seems to me possible that a PC would have enough power to run a reverb native, but the guys making native plugs are never going to make us a decent one anyway

sometime take a trip to IRC's EffNet, on the #musicdsp channel, where you can chat with those who do make the plugs we buy.

Most of them have never seen or hear the equipment they are trying to model, and dont care. They fall back on some old theory about DSP, and just copy algos off of each other, FLAWED algos. It is very enlightening to talk to them and see their philosophy. They will build something one way, and it doesnt matter if it violates all audio rules and common sense, we MUST work their way, they will not play any other way...it is ridiculous.

Not that we see DSP plug makers really doing any better, but then at least they cant use the " out of horsepower " excuse
 
bbundy96 said:
To start, here's my basic computer setup:
P4 1.8A gHz with 1gig PC800 RAM.
30 gig WD harddrive (7200 rpm)(programs)
100 gig WD special edition HD (dedicated music storage)
MOTU 24i
Sonar 1.0x

As it stands, I can record/playback 24 tracks easily as long as they have minimal plug-ins (i.e. EQ, compression, NO reverbs). It doesn't tax my CPU all that much. RAM is barely even tapped.

If I start adding in a few reverbs to 4 or 5 tracks, my CPU is taxed an easy 90% with just 10 tracks recorded and my RAM is barely tapped. One computer buddy of mine suggested an upgrade to P4's latest HTT CPUs, but I am not a fan of spending $700 on a CPU/mobo upgrade now when I know that price will be slashed drastically in the coming months.

Does anyone have an opinion on DSP cards/plug-in packages? How good are the plug-ins that are packaged with the card? How well does the card process reverb and other effects? I am not really interested in bouncing tracks or switching to hardware effects. I'd rather spend 1500 on a DSP card that would last me a while than 700 on a CPU that will go out of style in a month.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Jim
StudioMix2002@hotmail.com
Click to expand...

Did it ever occur to you to upgrade Sonar? The original 1.x versions were very buggy - its up to 2.2 now.
 
dediated DSP is definately the way to go, I don't know if it's there yet but just look at the video card revolution. They used to be general formatting pipelines much the way sound cards are now. Just wait until sound cards start shipping with 24 dedicated memory buffers and onboard spectral analysers. When the software can just say "here's another sample, apply the reverb/compression parameters I've already set up and return me the result" the "difital" sky will be the limit. Simply offloading the actual calculations to the sound card and getting the results back is neat but isn't likely to put it over the top.
 
Re: Re: DSP card or CPU/mobo upgrade? Advice please.

brzilian said:
Did it ever occur to you to upgrade Sonar? The original 1.x versions were very buggy - its up to 2.2 now.
Click to expand...

I was actually look at doing that the other day. Aside from having limited tracks/effects, I haven't come across any problems or bugs since Sonar came out.


As for the price of upgrade the CPU vs DSP price (as mentioned a few posts ago), the cost of the top P4 runs over $600US, plus a motherboard upgrade will also be needed. So, if I were to upgrade now, I'd be look at 7-800 dollars for CPU. If DSP would be the way to go, spending the few extra hundred wouldn't be a big deal.
 
Just wanted to say that I was ranting about the possiblilities of dedicated DSP hardware. As far as real products available now I don't have a clue.

You already have a 1.8 ghz cpu coupled with lots of fast RAM. An expensive cpu upgrade would most likely be disappointing IMO.

If it's just the reverb that taking the hit it's probably the raw amount of data it has to eat over and over again, not the actual calculations. A faster cpu with a bigger L2 cache may make a difference, but it's unlikely it's going to be the difference between night and day, then again, anythings possible.

Just an aside, have you checked to make sure you are running the fastest timings your memory supports? This can make a bit of a difference in memory stressed situations.

I'd be nervous about buying a DSP card. I've sort of looked at them for a while because I like the concept, but they are so expensive.

Doug
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top