Drum recording, analog deck...advice needed for set up.

fred s.

New member
I posted this in "recording techniques" and got nothing, so I erased my post.
Think I'll stick to the analog forum.

I have already been getting a decent drum sound with just my mixer (mackie 1642-VLZ),
but recently got an outboard preamp (DMP3)that I'd like to try on a drum recording next week...the gear is:

Studio projects B1 dual overheads,

SM57 on snare

sm57 inside kick...all pretty straightforward.

Recording onto Fostex m80, using an FMR RNC compressor and 4 channel Tascam Pe40 outboard EQ.

My questions are:

1. Should I use the DMP3 on the kick and snare (it has 2 channels) or on the overheads in this situation?

2. Should I stereo compress the entire drum "mix" while tracking via master inserts, or just kick and snare via channel inserts?
 
Try a test run on both your questions. Only by hearing the results are you going to arrive at what you like.
 
Agreed, try both combos and see. If the music is more kick/snare driven, you may want your better pre on those; if it's more about the cymbal work or tom fills or overall kit sound, then maybe you want your better pres on the overheads.

As for printing your compression to tape, I say only compress if/what you have to or if there's a certain sound from it that you really want to commit to.
 
Agreed, try both combos and see. If the music is more kick/snare driven, you may want your better pre on those; if it's more about the cymbal work or tom fills or overall kit sound, then maybe you want your better pres on the overheads.

As for printing your compression to tape, I say only compress if/what you have to or if there's a certain sound from it that you really want to commit to.

I generally compress every instrument when I track, a little bit at least. The RNC can be very subtle at times but it's there. Going for a big rock sound...

Im thinking start off with compression over kick and snare on mixer pres and overheads on DMP3, then I'll try it the other way.
 
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My questions are:

1. Should I use the DMP3 on the kick and snare (it has 2 channels) or on the overheads in this situation?

2. Should I stereo compress the entire drum "mix" while tracking via master inserts, or just kick and snare via channel inserts?

1) If levels are set properly, all the channels should sound good either way. I'd probably at least try the dynamics, the SM57s, through the DMP3. They are more likely to sound a tiny bit different into different preamps than the condensers.

2) Personnally, I usually don't compress drums. About all I usually compress in tracking is vocals, if even that. But to each, their own.

Cheers,

Otto
 
1)

2) Personnally, I usually don't compress drums. About all I usually compress in tracking is vocals, if even that. But to each, their own.

Cheers,

Otto

This is kind of what I was getting at above before I deleted it because I started going off on my own trip. I've been working on drums sounds too as the OP. There are just too many ways they can sound. You just have to experiment with different things until you find the sound you like. Adding the compressor will change everything including the sound of the overheads. But it may fatten up the snare or kick. But you can get a fatter snare by moving the kick mic in more and adding low end too.
 
You just have to experiment with different things until you find the sound you like.
And you need to find your way of experimenting with different things, so it gets even more freaky :drunk:
I guess ideal "way" would be having the drummer in a box while having yourself in a diffrent box where you can hear only what "comes" from the "wire" and then run from box to box and around trying diffrent things while the drummer drumming :).
In the situation where you are the drummer in the same box where your reels are spinning things get pretty freaky pretty fast :(

Uh, and, among the diffrent ways and things don't dismiss a simplest set-up you can think of, because "the sound you like" may just come out of it :D
 
This is kind of what I was getting at above before I deleted it because I started going off on my own trip. I've been working on drums sounds too as the OP. There are just too many ways they can sound. You just have to experiment with different things until you find the sound you like. Adding the compressor will change everything including the sound of the overheads. But it may fatten up the snare or kick. But you can get a fatter snare by moving the kick mic in more and adding low end too.

You also noted that you should experiment to find a sound you like. Then you may also find that different recordings should have different sounds.

I've generally taken a big picture approach, treating the drum kit as a great big thing I want to record, not several different things.

Typically I use one, two or three mikes. Usually my Shure SM80 omni mikes. Usually one overhead. If I could get away with just one mike, I would, but usually there is no single spot that gives a good, complete sound. I have the kit surrounded by 10 to 12 ASC Studio Traps, which helps a lot. It creates what they call a Quick Sound Field in the space of the kit and especially where the overhead mike is. That means that the mike hears a lot of diffuse, quick reflections (that kind of compress the sound in the air itself and add some body) and then a quick decay so the sound is lively, but dry. It also tames the low end down to about 100 Hz and gets rid of most of the reflected sound from the room. Not much point in trying to record room tone in a room like mine.

The overhead mike gets a lot of the kit, but the kick is just kind of an ethereal low end suggestion and the snare has no rattle sound to speak of. That works OK for a calm, jazz sort of mix, but not so much for something loud and energetic.

So, usually I have another SM80 a few feet out in front of the kick (about a foot off the floor or perhaps higher) that gets a fuller kick sound and I cheat the mike over to the snare side a tad so that I can get some snare rattle. It also adds some strength to the rack toms.

Those two mixed in mono (or maybe tracked separately and panned a little bit) is often just what I need from the drums, though the floor tom might be a tad weak. Since I don't compress the overhead, I usually have to remind myself to play consistent and balance properly between snare, toms and cymbals (i.e., hit the snare and toms hard).

The third mike would typically be over my right shoulder or down a bit closer to the floor tom.

Typically the result (given the limitations of my playing and the sound of my homemade kit) is a big, open and fairly complete sound, though fairly dry. I don't work too hard to try to do complicated stereo stuff, because I usually find that mono or a bit of panning of the two tracks is fine in the context of the mixes I do.

I don't seem to have many phase issues using just two or three mikes. The mikes are sampling such different parts of the sound that it doesn't cause problems. If I'm using that third mike, I usually try to keep it the same distance from the snare head as the overhead mike, though it's usually far enough off to the side of the snare that it really isn't getting much of the body of the snare, just some rattle.

Tracked and mixed to tape it gives a good solid drum track with very little fuss. Maybe a little bit of eq to adjust it to the other tracks, but usually I don't hear much benefit from compression.

Cheers,

Otto
 
I've generally taken a big picture approach, treating the drum kit as a great big thing I want to record, not several different things.

I imagine it's obvious to most and would be to anyone trying out recording the way I do, but I'm not after a "modern" drum sound, since I'm basically using Motown-era technique. OTOH, I do sometimes hear new tunes where the drums sound a lot like mine, but more in the soul, funk and alternative worlds, rather than big time pop radio.

Cheers,

Otto
 
I imagine it's obvious to most and would be to anyone trying out recording the way I do, but I'm not after a "modern" drum sound, since I'm basically using Motown-era technique. OTOH, I do sometimes hear new tunes where the drums sound a lot like mine, but more in the soul, funk and alternative worlds, rather than big time pop radio.

Cheers,

Otto

You've just described above almost exactly what I've been trying to get. Now if I can get corny for second, I like them to sound sticky and explosive and as one living organism. :D I've been trying to keep the room out. It's hard with the toms. Even close micing them doesn't always work. I've thought about trying baffles around the kit like you've described. I think I'm going to try that.
 
You've just described above almost exactly what I've been trying to get. Now if I can get corny for second, I like them to sound sticky and explosive and as one living organism. :D I've been trying to keep the room out. It's hard with the toms. Even close micing them doesn't always work. I've thought about trying baffles around the kit like you've described. I think I'm going to try that.

One of the odd things about my studio is that while my mikes, mixer and tape machines are good, but fairly cheap, I have a bunch of those fairly high-end ASC goboes. Thankfully I got them all used, because it would cost a ridiculous amount to buy them new. You can actually make a DIY version pretty easily. Search for "DIY Tube Trap" and you should find some instructions. You need 1" pipe insulation (med density fibreglass), round wood end caps, glue that can glue fiberglas, 4 mil plastic sheet and fabric for the outside. The only other thing about ASC Studio Traps is they stick them on a stand so they are easy to position and raise and lower.

Cheers,

Otto
 
Well my favorite combo was DMP3 and FMR RNC on kick and snare and overheads right into mixer, no compressor. Did some tests today. Really subtle settings on the compressor, just a little push and so there's not much "clipping".

I am going for a more modern rock sound, and this worked best...kinda want to get more toms in the mix though.
 
To follow up a tad, I pestered Bob Ohlsson today about how he recorded drums when he was recording Motown stuff. He said their standard method was three mikes, mixed to mono. One cardioid overhead, one cardioid mike on snare (above) for more low end and one mike on kick. Of course, that also would not give a "modern" sound, but it would still give a good solid drum sound that might work well. I generally don't find the snare mike necessary with my method, since I'm using an omni overhead. They used a cardioid, so the low end wasn't as full in the overhead, and the snare needed a fill mike. Still, the overall effect of the drum tracking methods is similar.

Cheers,

Otto
 
To follow up a tad, I pestered Bob Ohlsson today about how he recorded drums when he was recording Motown stuff. He said their standard method was three mikes, mixed to mono. One cardioid overhead, one cardioid mike on snare (above) for more low end and one mike on kick. Of course, that also would not give a "modern" sound, but it would still give a good solid drum sound that might work well. I generally don't find the snare mike necessary with my method, since I'm using an omni overhead. They used a cardioid, so the low end wasn't as full in the overhead, and the snare needed a fill mike. Still, the overall effect of the drum tracking methods is similar.

Cheers,

Otto

That's interesting Otto. That's exactly how I've had mine set up. I'm still trying different things out though. I've actually just switched to another mic overhead which I have set as an omni. The snare does sound pretty full with out the snare mic. I'm trying to get a harder snare sound, rather than how it can sometimes sound mushy. Do you use a pad on the snare mic? I find now it's too loud even with a 57 and I have to use the 20db cut on the mixer. Strange I don't ever remember having to do that. I don't like using the pad.
 
That's interesting Otto. That's exactly how I've had mine set up. I'm still trying different things out though. I've actually just switched to another mic overhead which I have set as an omni. The snare does sound pretty full with out the snare mic. I'm trying to get a harder snare sound, rather than how it can sometimes sound mushy. Do you use a pad on the snare mic? I find now it's too loud even with a 57 and I have to use the 20db cut on the mixer. Strange I don't ever remember having to do that. I don't like using the pad.

If I'm using an omni overhead, I generally don't need or use a snare fill mike. I get the body of the snare (and basically everything but the kick drum) from the overhead and I get the snare rattle from the mike out front, which also gives me the kick drum. Those two together are usually a good mono sound. The third mike over the shoulder or by the floor tom can give the floor tom more body and bring up the ride a bit, but sometimes I don't use it.

Cheers,

Otto
 
If I'm using an omni overhead, I generally don't need or use a snare fill mike. I get the body of the snare (and basically everything but the kick drum) from the overhead and I get the snare rattle from the mike out front, which also gives me the kick drum. Those two together are usually a good mono sound. The third mike over the shoulder or by the floor tom can give the floor tom more body and bring up the ride a bit, but sometimes I don't use it.

Cheers,

Otto

yeah, sorry about that Otto. I did read that's how you miked them. I meant if you do use a snare mike. I'm just going to keep trying some different things out with that 3rd mic.
 
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