Drum recording advice?
- Thread starter VesuviusJay
- Start date
MightyPOOsticK
New member
Re: Trigger Them!!!!
What kind of drum processor did you use?
Analytical Man said:
What kind of drum processor did you use?
jfreeman373
New member
Track Rat said:
There are all kinds of programs that will let you slide a track anywhere in time you want. As long as you line up the attacks and then zoom in damn near as far to the sampling rate you can put something within an exact bit of phase correctness. If it's eaxaclty 180 out... many have a flip phase command somewhere.
It just takes time. Hell I've been working on the mixing and mastering of one song for 6 months.... tracking took 2 days. But, it's mine so I can. I don't have to pay for studio time. Plus I don't write very often, so I continue to work on my old stuff with new knowledge.
My main problem with mixing is in frequency overlaps. Space and time is never an issue. It's the fucking EQ drives me nutts. One day I like more highs, others I can't stand them. They should have never made the EQ so I wouldn't have to worry about it. Another thing is that I have to share my monitors with another guy and I'm always switching back and forth. That madness never ends.
tubedude
New member
That just wont work in some instances with overheads, I dont think you quite understand the concept there. Of the kick is in phase,and the snare is not, you move the track to get the snare in phase and then the kick is out.
Once again, use a measuring tape, its the best guarantee.
Once again, use a measuring tape, its the best guarantee.
jfreeman373
New member
I guess you would have to go more in depth to understand what you are trying to say. I really don't see what you are saying at all.
This is what I do. show me where I am wrong I may need to learn something.
Start with an overhead, phase align it with the other over head, then phase align the snare with the overheads, then align the kick with the overheads. Pick a point of reference and then everything would be in phase wouldn't it? It seems logical to me. If A=B and B=C then A must Equal C. Which is A=B=C. ALL in phase. Pick your reference anchor and use the scientific process.
This is what I do. show me where I am wrong I may need to learn something.
Start with an overhead, phase align it with the other over head, then phase align the snare with the overheads, then align the kick with the overheads. Pick a point of reference and then everything would be in phase wouldn't it? It seems logical to me. If A=B and B=C then A must Equal C. Which is A=B=C. ALL in phase. Pick your reference anchor and use the scientific process.
tubedude
New member
Your overheads are in charge of picking up the whole kit.
Left overhead is put up "in a good spot"
Right overhead is put up in a "good spot"
Now, lets say your left overhead is 3 feet from the snare, and 4 feet from the center of the kick.
Now, lets say your right overhead ended up (making this part up here) 4 feet from the snare and 4.4 feet from the center of the kick.
Now, that would/could put both mics in a bad phase relationship on either the snare, kick or both.
Lets say that the snare is 90 degrees out, and the kick is 45 degrees out of phase. So, you move the right overhead in line with the snare, and now the snares are in phase. But, you just drug the kick 45 degrees out of phase in the opposite direction.
I thik my math was right there (up all night, very sleepy)
See the point? Get the overheads right mathematically, then the rest can be computer aligned.
Peace!
Left overhead is put up "in a good spot"
Right overhead is put up in a "good spot"
Now, lets say your left overhead is 3 feet from the snare, and 4 feet from the center of the kick.
Now, lets say your right overhead ended up (making this part up here) 4 feet from the snare and 4.4 feet from the center of the kick.
Now, that would/could put both mics in a bad phase relationship on either the snare, kick or both.
Lets say that the snare is 90 degrees out, and the kick is 45 degrees out of phase. So, you move the right overhead in line with the snare, and now the snares are in phase. But, you just drug the kick 45 degrees out of phase in the opposite direction.
I thik my math was right there (up all night, very sleepy)
See the point? Get the overheads right mathematically, then the rest can be computer aligned.
Peace!
pipelineaudio
Well-known member
Damn I was hoping to bust on Jfreeman and his hi fi speakers by hearing his mix, but damn, thing sounds OK! That drummer would probably sound good with one 58 sitting on the floor of the room tho.
Theres an " insubstantialness " to the drums tho, that sounds QUITE phasey. The scenario tubedude pointed out is quite correct, and it oges the same when I reccomend using headphones and noise to phase cancel as close as possible when micing guitar cabs. Just aligning the peaks in a DAW cant corrsect phase problems, in fact they will CAUSE them. Lining up peaks makes phase accurate for one frequency only. Think about it
for drum triggering, www.drumagog.com if youre on a PC. Alesis DM5 is a cheap alternative if youre in hardware
for death metal, anything on my drum rant thread would be helpful, and like the others said, its mostly in the guy with the sticks. I just had a GRUELING death metal session yesterday, and am sad to see the tip tapping and flim flamming/playing WAY faster than ones ability are still cornerstones of the AMATUERS in the genre. Play half as much and twice as good and I bet it sounds WAY better than fast and sloppy
Theres an " insubstantialness " to the drums tho, that sounds QUITE phasey. The scenario tubedude pointed out is quite correct, and it oges the same when I reccomend using headphones and noise to phase cancel as close as possible when micing guitar cabs. Just aligning the peaks in a DAW cant corrsect phase problems, in fact they will CAUSE them. Lining up peaks makes phase accurate for one frequency only. Think about it
for drum triggering, www.drumagog.com if youre on a PC. Alesis DM5 is a cheap alternative if youre in hardware
for death metal, anything on my drum rant thread would be helpful, and like the others said, its mostly in the guy with the sticks. I just had a GRUELING death metal session yesterday, and am sad to see the tip tapping and flim flamming/playing WAY faster than ones ability are still cornerstones of the AMATUERS in the genre. Play half as much and twice as good and I bet it sounds WAY better than fast and sloppy
jfreeman373
New member
I got ya now. I hadn't thought of that scenario. I don't usually use over heads though so that may be why. I have these little condeser mics for cymbals that are only a couple of inches away. They cause problems though when the drummer gets into hitting the cymbal too hard and they fly up and hit the mic. I might go about changing things next time and start using the overheads like you say.
VesuviusJay
Poser Roaster
So what about this senario?? Im using a good piece of software that will take the accoustic wave files and sequence them into drum parts. How would I get a good "metal" "tick" sound to the kick drum wav, so I can just continue to use my software, yet get a truer sounding death metal blast.
pipelineaudio
Well-known member
use the right sample
kick 07 and kick 36 from the free ddrum sample library would do the trick perfectly
kick 07 and kick 36 from the free ddrum sample library would do the trick perfectly
VesuviusJay
Poser Roaster
It looks like ddrums are mid files though. Or am I mistaken? I need the file to actually be in .wav format. Link maybe?
pipelineaudio
Well-known member
no you are right...
ok heres the trick
go here
http://www.clavia.se/ddrum/sounds/index.htm
for the sounds
now go here for the playback utility:
http://www.clavia.se/ddrum/Files/ddrum4Tool.exe
now use a utility like ' total recorder " to turn them into wav's without leaving the digital realm
ok heres the trick
go here
http://www.clavia.se/ddrum/sounds/index.htm
for the sounds
now go here for the playback utility:
http://www.clavia.se/ddrum/Files/ddrum4Tool.exe
now use a utility like ' total recorder " to turn them into wav's without leaving the digital realm
wow...a lot of stuff here, I dont know if this will even get read (LOL).
I'm getting ready to start on our first serious studio project as well and have been doing a lot of research and homework. I'll be doing most of the instrument stuff...drums, guitar, bass, etc as well as most of the engineering and production (yea...a lot of hats to wear). Here's what I've come up with on recording the drums...some of this repeats what others have said so please forgive any redundacies....
In regards to preperation....
First...the drum kit. Make sure the kit is ready to go! Check -everything- make sure you don't have any bent hoops, no pedal squeaks, properly tuned etc.. Almost everything I've read suggests new drums heads with particular attention to the resonant heads. I can't do this myself right now as I just don't have the money, so I will have to muddle thru with what I have to work with, but its a consideration nontheless. Also, don't make any radical changes in what type of head you use...work with what your familiar with. Also pay attention to cymbals...make sure your using something that is suitable for the song your recording. I find thinner cymbals with a nice long decay work better for recording then stage crashes.
Second....mic's and mic placement. A lot of people are really analy retentive about the Shure SM57 for snares. While this is a good mic, its not the end all be all of drum mics! It's more important to use a mic your already familiar with then to bring in a new piece of equipment just before a recording session. You will get a -much- better sound working with a mic you already know as aposed to one you've never worked with. Things like mic placement, the room, drummer dynamics, board eq will contribute more to the sound then the particular mic will. A good engineer who know's his mics can get a great sound with any decent vocal mic (that he is familiar with), but a poor engineer will always get a poor sound even with the best Shure's and Neumann's on the market! I've never worked with "death metal", but the advice of close drum mic'in sounds reasonable. If your playing that fast, then yes, you don't want a lot of bleed. For over head's I prefer to use a nice condensor with a relatively flat frequency response. Most importantly...experiment a little...try different mics and different mic placements and see what sounds best to you! This is not an exact science and a lot of people usually have to go thru trial and error to find what "works best for them".
Third...The room. It sounds like your working in a project studio or basement, so you may not have a lot of flexibility here, but work with what you have. Maybe before you hit the record button to start laying down tracks, try the drum in a couple of different places in the room...record some scratch tracks and see what sounds best. Also, make sure your comfortable...room temperature etc...I don't know about others, but drumming can be a work out for me...when I'm recording drums, I prefer the room to be a little cooler then I do say when I recording guitar parts. Lighting is important too....you want the over all -vibe- of the room to be condusive to creativity....you want to be comfortable.
Fourth...and this is a biggy...."play to the tape". Once you start recording remember...your not on stage! Your not trying to show off! Build your drums parts to the song and watch your dynamics. As a stage drummer myself (mostly classic rock/blues stuff) I found early on that I have a tendacy to really "lean" on the cymbals, and from what I've read, I guess a lot of drummer do the first time they go into the studio. Technique, technique, technique...little things you ignore on stage -will- come back to haunt you on a recording.
Lastly, know your equipment and know how to get the sound you want from the kits and the mics at the mixing board. EQ is such an important thing and plays such a large role. Good eq'ing should be transparent. It should not sound like you boosted the mid's on the snare to get the correct sound....this comes back to knowing how to work with your mics.
Stuff like compression is subjective. If you have good outboard compressors and know how to use them -correctly-, then by all means...use them. With that said, remember...once you've got it recorded, it's there. I prefer to do my compression, as with most effects, after I've layed down the tracks. You have much better control usually and you can change things later if you need to. I've also found that it really helps to lay down a couple of scratch tracks first...basic guitar and bass sounds with a basic vocal track so you can see how everything sounds together before you get serious with it. Something that sounds really great by itself, may get a little lost or "squishy" once the other tracks are put down. Yea this takes a little extra time, but unless your paying a ton of $ for a pro studioand forkin out your dough by the hour, then its worth it.
Also...keep a positive attitude and have fun! This is probably the best piece of advice of all...problems do and will happen, but it's a lot easier to get around if you keep a positive attitude!
One last little note.....drugs and booze. I'm not pointing fingers...don't know if this apply's to you or not, but I've seen many good performances ruined by people that were just to f*cked up to play. I've seen a lot of studio time waisted by guys that would rather sit there drinkin beer as aposed to getting down to work. I've had a good set of demo's ruined by an engineer who thought "he worked better stoned"....it just don't work. A light buzz to help you relax and being so waisted you can't stand up are two totally different things, but either way its something to avoid altogether in the studio.
I'm going to finish this here...time to grab another cup of coffee and head down to the studio and see if I can follow my own advice (LOL)!
I hope some of this helps you and I wish you luck.
Bright Blessing's & Gentle Breeze's,
Jim
I'm getting ready to start on our first serious studio project as well and have been doing a lot of research and homework. I'll be doing most of the instrument stuff...drums, guitar, bass, etc as well as most of the engineering and production (yea...a lot of hats to wear). Here's what I've come up with on recording the drums...some of this repeats what others have said so please forgive any redundacies....
In regards to preperation....
First...the drum kit. Make sure the kit is ready to go! Check -everything- make sure you don't have any bent hoops, no pedal squeaks, properly tuned etc.. Almost everything I've read suggests new drums heads with particular attention to the resonant heads. I can't do this myself right now as I just don't have the money, so I will have to muddle thru with what I have to work with, but its a consideration nontheless. Also, don't make any radical changes in what type of head you use...work with what your familiar with. Also pay attention to cymbals...make sure your using something that is suitable for the song your recording. I find thinner cymbals with a nice long decay work better for recording then stage crashes.
Second....mic's and mic placement. A lot of people are really analy retentive about the Shure SM57 for snares. While this is a good mic, its not the end all be all of drum mics! It's more important to use a mic your already familiar with then to bring in a new piece of equipment just before a recording session. You will get a -much- better sound working with a mic you already know as aposed to one you've never worked with. Things like mic placement, the room, drummer dynamics, board eq will contribute more to the sound then the particular mic will. A good engineer who know's his mics can get a great sound with any decent vocal mic (that he is familiar with), but a poor engineer will always get a poor sound even with the best Shure's and Neumann's on the market! I've never worked with "death metal", but the advice of close drum mic'in sounds reasonable. If your playing that fast, then yes, you don't want a lot of bleed. For over head's I prefer to use a nice condensor with a relatively flat frequency response. Most importantly...experiment a little...try different mics and different mic placements and see what sounds best to you! This is not an exact science and a lot of people usually have to go thru trial and error to find what "works best for them".
Third...The room. It sounds like your working in a project studio or basement, so you may not have a lot of flexibility here, but work with what you have. Maybe before you hit the record button to start laying down tracks, try the drum in a couple of different places in the room...record some scratch tracks and see what sounds best. Also, make sure your comfortable...room temperature etc...I don't know about others, but drumming can be a work out for me...when I'm recording drums, I prefer the room to be a little cooler then I do say when I recording guitar parts. Lighting is important too....you want the over all -vibe- of the room to be condusive to creativity....you want to be comfortable.
Fourth...and this is a biggy...."play to the tape". Once you start recording remember...your not on stage! Your not trying to show off! Build your drums parts to the song and watch your dynamics. As a stage drummer myself (mostly classic rock/blues stuff) I found early on that I have a tendacy to really "lean" on the cymbals, and from what I've read, I guess a lot of drummer do the first time they go into the studio. Technique, technique, technique...little things you ignore on stage -will- come back to haunt you on a recording.
Lastly, know your equipment and know how to get the sound you want from the kits and the mics at the mixing board. EQ is such an important thing and plays such a large role. Good eq'ing should be transparent. It should not sound like you boosted the mid's on the snare to get the correct sound....this comes back to knowing how to work with your mics.
Stuff like compression is subjective. If you have good outboard compressors and know how to use them -correctly-, then by all means...use them. With that said, remember...once you've got it recorded, it's there. I prefer to do my compression, as with most effects, after I've layed down the tracks. You have much better control usually and you can change things later if you need to. I've also found that it really helps to lay down a couple of scratch tracks first...basic guitar and bass sounds with a basic vocal track so you can see how everything sounds together before you get serious with it. Something that sounds really great by itself, may get a little lost or "squishy" once the other tracks are put down. Yea this takes a little extra time, but unless your paying a ton of $ for a pro studioand forkin out your dough by the hour, then its worth it.
Also...keep a positive attitude and have fun! This is probably the best piece of advice of all...problems do and will happen, but it's a lot easier to get around if you keep a positive attitude!
One last little note.....drugs and booze. I'm not pointing fingers...don't know if this apply's to you or not, but I've seen many good performances ruined by people that were just to f*cked up to play. I've seen a lot of studio time waisted by guys that would rather sit there drinkin beer as aposed to getting down to work. I've had a good set of demo's ruined by an engineer who thought "he worked better stoned"....it just don't work. A light buzz to help you relax and being so waisted you can't stand up are two totally different things, but either way its something to avoid altogether in the studio.
I'm going to finish this here...time to grab another cup of coffee and head down to the studio and see if I can follow my own advice (LOL)!
I hope some of this helps you and I wish you luck.
Bright Blessing's & Gentle Breeze's,
Jim
VesuviusJay
Poser Roaster
pipelineaudio said:
Cool I get the picture. How about linking me to some good cymbals and maybe an Ice bell! Would be totally appreciated!