drum OHs clipping

C

connor413

New member
i picked up a pair of behringer C2s about a month ago and i've been having a lot of trouble setting up the gain staging for them. no matter what i've done so far, i can't get em to stop clipping - most likely at the point of conversion from analog to digital (i think).

this is my chain:

C2s > xenyx 1202 mixer > m-audio delta 44 > daw

and there are a few points where i can adjust the signal:

-trim / gain pot for each input
-fader for each input
-master fader for the particular bus these mics are going to
-the delta 44 can be configured to -10, consumer level, or +4

the mics themselves also have a -10 pad which i have switched on.

i've tried lowering the master fader (to try and cool down the signal when it hits the delta) while boosting each track's own fader in order to compensate, but this basically just raises the noise floor as the master fader goes down. i've tried leaving the master fader at 0 and adjusting the trim pot and/or individual track faders, but there's still clipping occurring. i've also tried switching between -10, consumer, and +4 on the delta, but that didn't solve the problem either. if anyone has any ideas that might help, i'd really appreciate it.

the mics are set up in the glyn johns configuration if that has any bearing on this
 
Do not use the equipment on the consumer setting.

If you use the 1202 mixer, turn all gain settings on the M-Audio all of the way down. Set all faders on the 1202 to unity (zero) and work from there.

Leave all faders at unity (zero) while recording. Concentrate on the input gain.

*Play the bejeezus out of the drums while somebody else looks at the input meters.
*Have that guy adjust the input gain at the 1202 until the peaks hit somewhere around 0 on the 1202 meters. This should give you peaks of around -18 in your DAW. Remember, in most systems 0 on an analog board equals -18 in digital land.
*Record.


If you do not use the 1202 and plug straight into the Delta, do the same procedure as above only adjust the input gain on the delta to peak at -18.


Things to keep in mind:
*Keep all faders at unity (zero).
*Remove all plugins and inserts unless you REALLY know what you're doing with them (talking recording time here, not mixing).
*Turn your monitors up. Your entire project will be 2 or 3 times quieter than a finished CD until the absolute final step. This is normal. It is a major problem if this is not the case.
 
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thanks so much, you really cleared a lot up, i appreciate it.

i'm still having some issues though; once i get everything leveled out at or around -18 in my DAW, i get some pops / peaking (?) occurring at random. not exactly random - it'll be a particular snare or kick hit, but i'm almost certain it's not because i hit anything harder that time.

once i noticed it, i'd play as evenly as possible and one or two hits (in a 20-30 second test run) will still pop 10db louder than everything else - not just a louder hit, but my speakers POP as if they're being pushed way too hard.

besides that, the hi-hats are still triggering some distortion. i've got all faders at 0 and the gain pots are barely above completely down. there's hardly any waveform showing up when i record. any idea what may be the issue?

lastly, i just realized i've got a 1204, not the 1202, if that has any relevance.

thanks again though, i've read a bunch of articles on gain staging and never quite understood how to go about getting where i needed to be and you cleared it up in about four sentences.
 
Can you post an MP3 with the distortion?

Also: Have you burnt a CD and tried listening on a different system? Is it possible that the recording is fine but your monitoring system is broken somehow?
 
i uploaded both overhead tracks here: http://canadiens.bandcamp.com/releases. they kick in around :06.

overhead L has the pops i was talking about; first at :10-:11 and second at :15

overhead R has the distorted hi-hats. the crash seems to be triggering it too (on both tracks)

i record on a separate computer from this one and i definitely still hear the same problems here, so i don't think it's my monitoring setup.
 
Is that upload with all faders at zero?

Here's the thing: That clipping looks and sounds digital, but the digital waveform is nowhere near clipping. It seems like somehow the Delta clipped and then the signal was digitally lowered afterward.

How exactly did you create that example file?
 
Is it possible the drums are creating a noise level > then the mics spl.. the only way to fix this is to play quieter or have the mic's a bit farther away.
 
Chibi Nappa said:
Is that upload with all faders at zero?

Here's the thing: That clipping looks and sounds digital, but the digital waveform is nowhere near clipping. It seems like somehow the Delta clipped and then the signal was digitally lowered afterward.

How exactly did you create that example file?
Click to expand...
yep, all faders are at zero, the -10 pad on each mic is on and the gain pots are at less than 10%.

those two files are complete raw takes, no editing or processing whatsoever.

i set the delta at +4, because this is where the signal has come out the quietest vs the other two options (consumer, -10). i feel like that may be where i'm screwing up. from what i can tell, when it's set at +4, that means the delta adjusts to allow a hotter signal through, which would be best considering how loud the drums are, but maybe i'm totally off base with that.

smithers138 said:
Is it possible the drums are creating a noise level > then the mics spl.. the only way to fix this is to play quieter or have the mic's a bit farther away.
Click to expand...
man, i really hope not. that would basically make these mics useless to me
 
The mics should be able to handle 140 db so I don't think that's it.

Kinda sounds like you've still got a trim pot that's up somewhere.
?


I dunno man.
 
Dogbreath said:
The mics should be able to handle 140 db so I don't think that's it.

Kinda sounds like you've still got a trim pot that's up somewhere.
?


I dunno man.
Click to expand...

With inexpensive mic's you are not likely going to get near the spl they say you should.. just try moving the mic farther away and see if it still happens, if it doesn't then you know what the problem is.
 
With the crackling plus the intermittent short jumps in volume –and at the same time it seems unlikely, I'm temped to say a poor connection (as in maybe when you lose half of a balanced line and it goes normal for a sec.
At least tap on the mics, cables, boxes, twist and jiggle all the connections if you haven't tried that.

Chibi did you download and put it in an editor to see the waveform? (I take it from your comment it is flat-topped but it doesn't sound like most of the hits are clicking. Plus I've never seen an A/D clipped signal jump up past the ceiling like what we're hearing.

..Also, Mackies (for example) will do almost that exact sort of thing due to crackly assign buttons -and/or internal ribbon connectors.
(Hell Behri' coppied everything else they did.. Why not. :)
 
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i know this is going to mess up your mic technique, but for the sake of troubleshooting, try placing your overhead mikes a few feet from the drums, and also, if possible, a few feet from reflective walls/ceiling. adjust gain to obtain roughly the same signal levels, and see if you still have distortion. from what you've said in this post, i'd think that it's either the mics or the preamps distorting.
 
because of limited space, i couldn't move the mics back too far, but i still ended up with distortion and pops with this setup. here's some measurements:

right mic - 4'6" from hi-hat, 19.5" from floor tom
left mic - 49" up from center of snare, 3 feet from hi-hat

i didn't test this configuration a lot, but the clipping was definitely still there on the hats and a couple of pops on the left mic's track. if i keep getting clipping after moving the mics further out, that would pretty much rule out the spl issue, right? any ideas what i should try next?

many thanks to anyone who's made a suggestion, i really appreciate the help
 
mixsit said:
I proposed it may not be an SPL issue. ..and can't tell from your post if you considered that or not.
Click to expand...
sorry, didn't mean to disregard your post. forgot to check the connections, i'll try to do that tomorrow.

as for the mackie/behringer thing, are you suggesting that it's probably the mics or the mixer? i haven't had any problems with the mixer in the past, so i'm pretty sure it aint that
 
At this point they all may be within suspect. I'd be tempted to exercise -that would be bump, twist, jiggle everything including mics, any switches, cords, mixer and eliminate, simplify and or remove what you can to divide conquer and isolate.
What\which parts work as it should by the way?

..Also to add, reread, didn't see where (if) you've been able to record (with other parts of the system) successfully?
There was this-
"I record on a separate computer from this one and i definitely still hear the same problems here, so i don't think it's my monitoring setup."
Trouble shooting (divide conquer and isolate again. We (I ;)) could just as easily be completely on the wrong path. Bad drivers, format? Just that I went through the Mackie bad ribbon thing.
Whack! Good signal for a sec.. Sorry. :)
 
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well i just tried fiddling with every connection i could see and no dice. still clipping and pops no matter what level.

mixsit said:
..Also to add, reread, didn't see where (if) you've been able to record (with other parts of the system) successfully?
There was this-
"I record on a separate computer from this one and i definitely still hear the same problems here, so i don't think it's my monitoring setup."
Trouble shooting (divide conquer and isolate again. We (I ;)) could just as easily be completely on the wrong path. Bad drivers, format? Just that I went through the Mackie bad ribbon thing.
Whack! Good signal for a sec.. Sorry. :)
Click to expand...
i'm not really sure what you're asking here (?) - but you mentioned drivers and format. i don't think either of those are the issue. i've been recording with the exact same setup (with different overhead mics) for 6 months without an issue. i had crystal clear, distortion-free recordings up until i plugged in the C2s. i also played back some older recordings without a problem, so i don't think it's the monitoring chain.
 
This..
mixsit said:
..Also to add, reread, (and) didn't see where (if) you've been able to record (with other parts of the system) successfully?
Click to expand...
Plus this..
connor413 said:
... but you mentioned drivers and format. i don't think either of those are the issue. i've been recording with the exact same setup (with different overhead mics) for 6 months without an issue. i had crystal clear, distortion-free recordings up until i plugged in the C2s. i also played back some older recordings without a problem, so i don't think it's the monitoring chain.
Click to expand...

Oh my. a) Can you see how if this were in your first post-- how it would have altered the course of this trouble shooting.
b).. You did just say everything works but these mics right? :confused::rolleyes:
:D
 
mixsit said:
Oh my. a) Can you see how if this were in your first post-- how it would have altered the course of this trouble shooting.
b).. You did just say everything works but these mics right? :confused::rolleyes:
:D
Click to expand...
oh wow. i didn't even realize i had left that out. derp. but yeah, that is exactly what i'm saying. i didn't have a problem with any part of the system clipping until i tried setting up the C2s. does that mean i probably won't be getting much use out of these mics?

i thought it might not be a problem with the mics themselves since the clipping sounded digital and figured that pointed to some sort of gain staging issue. sorry for not clearing that up earlier
 
It could still be 'too hot somewhere and not the mics I suppose, but I don't get that being that intermittent stuff and jumping in levels. (You said the levels once in the DAW were low- that seems to rule out the A/D converter.

Ok. Look at the levels you're getting on the mixer with those mics (hopefully you have peak reading meters in the mixer for the pre/channel (..and main out if you're using it and not going channel direct out-) Are they ok there?
Or, set up a test- anything other than those mics, that will give you similar levels in. Is it clean then?
Just per chance- what's you're location?
 
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