Downside Up

I

Irk

New member
Often times in pictures of musicians in studios, there are really big, expensive looking condenser and ribbon microphones. Okay is everyone with me? Here is my question: Why is it that sometimes the microphones are upside down as if to be hanging from the ceiling or a tall stand and sometimes not? Is this just a matter of convenience or is it a sound issue?

K
 
Sometimes it's easier to fit a music stand below the mic when it's "hung" from a higher position, and upside down [downside up].
And sometimes, it just looks cooler! :cool:
 
This has come up before and I belive it had to do with the way mics were back in the old days. My memory isn't the greatest but heres what I remember. Some of those old fancy tube mics could generate a nice amount of heat. If you had the mic in its standard position, the heat would rise and this was not good for the diaphragm. Therefore they turned the darn thing upside down. The heat rises and doesn't mess with the diaphragm in this position. Now I think people mostly do it just because "thats how its supposed to look".
 
That is the same story that I heard too. What I don't know is whether the current generation of tube mics generates the same ammount of heat and so whether the same logic appkies to them too.
 
OTOH, having the tube beneath the capsule should help keep the capsule dry........

Harvey???
 
Wireneck said:
This has come up before and I belive it had to do with the way mics were back in the old days. My memory isn't the greatest but heres what I remember. Some of those old fancy tube mics could generate a nice amount of heat. If you had the mic in its standard position, the heat would rise and this was not good for the diaphragm. Therefore they turned the darn thing upside down. The heat rises and doesn't mess with the diaphragm in this position. Now I think people mostly do it just because "thats how its supposed to look".
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It would be true with PVC capsules, which dry with time, and heat will 'nicely' accelerate this process. Most likely this habit came from there.
Re: ribbon mics--since they are quite heavy it is easier to mount them upside down. Another reason--if you have music sheet or lyrics in your hands, the mic won't be in their way.

>What I don't know is whether the current generation of tube mics generates the same ammount of heat and so whether the same logic appkies to them too.<

Innovations,

If I understand correctly, you mean current through the tube?
Yes, the more current--the more heat. Tube microphones usually work with low currents, though--rarely hagher than 1ma. It is a well known fact that with higher currents tubes sound better, but at the same time the noise is going up, as well. Also, higher currents (as well as higher voltages) reduce life span of tube.

BTW Irk,

I am wondering why do you start your threads with thumbs down?
 
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Marik said:
Re: ribbon mics--since they are quite heavy it is easier to mount them upside down. Another reason--if you have music sheet or lyrics in your hands, the mic won't be in their way.
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Tou're right about the heat from the tubes driving out moisture in the capsules for condenser mics. But as you have pointed out, it was to keep the microphone stand away from the singer and make it easier to see sheet music on stands.

There was an added benefit when using ribbons mounted upside down and tilted towards the singer; it causes the ribbon to sag slightly and adds a little more bottom end to the sound. In the case of bi-directional ribbon mics (figure 8), the studios would rotate them 180 degrees periodically to even out the sag.

The main reason for overhead positioning was preventing accidental bumping of the mic and a direct line of sight to the music stand; keeping the capsule moisture free (and the ribbon sag) were bonuses.
 
Harvey, the literature which came with my AEA R84 mics states that tilting the mic will tend to accentuate the high end, not the low. This makes some sense to me, because as the ribbon sags, the tension of it would tend to increase. ??
 
AGCurry said:
Harvey, the literature which came with my AEA R84 mics states that tilting the mic will tend to accentuate the high end, not the low. This makes some sense to me, because as the ribbon sags, the tension of it would tend to increase. ??
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Wes Dooley said that? That's a new one on me, and that sure doesn't match what I hear when I tilt my R84's off their vertical axis. My two R84's came directly from Steve Albini and didn't have any literature with them, so I never read the manuals or any literature about them. When you normally tilt a ribbon off its normal axis, the high end is usually the first thing to go.

I guess I'll hafta call Wes and have him explain how he managed to defy the laws of physics on these beasts. Obviously, either Wes is wrong or I'm wrong. Can you send me a copy of the literature that says that?
 
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EleKtriKaz said:
Damn are you thorough Harvey ;)
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Well, I've known Wes Dooley for well over 40 years now, so I wanna make sure which one of us is right. Wes is a really sharp guy, so if he said that, I wanna either chide him for making an obvious error, or learn something I didn't know before. Wes is one of the three most knowledgable ribbon mic experts in the world.

And on boards like this, I try to be as complete and accurate with my answers as I possibly can.
 
67? Come on! That's young these days! We're expecting you to stick around for a LONG time Harvery. The "How does mic diaphragm size/polarity relate to...." thread was the first thing I read on this board, and I stuck around. I think most people have had similar experiences. Not sure where I'm going with this...thanks I guess. Yeah, that was it!
 
Harvey Gerst said:
I guess I'll hafta call Wes and have him explain how he managed to defy the laws of physics on these beasts. Obviously, either Wes is wrong or I'm wrong. Can you send me a copy of the literature that says that?
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Harvey,

Without saying who is right and who is wrong let me give my pick on it, and I will try not to get too much into theoretical detalils.
Ribbon works as a mass controlled system, but because of small gap between ribbon and pole pieces, on low frequencies it turnes into resistance controlled one, causing LF roll off. When ribbon sags, the gap increases and the corner frequency goes up.
Taking things to extremes-- if we did not have this gap at all, and had big enough baffle, the bass response would be flat down to fundamental resonanse of the ribbon, and HF would be rolled off. On the other hand, if we did not have pole pieces and thus, created baffle at all, the HF would be flat up to 50KHz, with light enough ribbon. But LF and sensitivity would suffer.

But, as you say: "Who needs that stinkin' theory?" :D
If you hear that with tilted mic bass is better, it means that bass is better, and no any theory or Wes can prove otherwise.
Please post what he says. It becomes very interesting...

Mark
 
i think the fact that Harvey, even with all of his years of experience and knowledge, is more interested in learning something rather than "who is right" is a lesson that everyone here can (and SHOULD) learn from.....and it's something that we as a community should aspire to. life is all about fattening your brain--everything else is secondary.


i've always hung my vocal mics "upside down" for two reasons--the first is b/c it gets it high....up and out of the way of the music stand, flailing arms (think Joe Cocker) and whatnot. the second reason is b/c i've found it easier to downwards tilt the mic towards the singer that way (to get the "chest voice") than when it's "right-side up". the "real" reasons "real" studios have for doing so obviously vary, but that's just my $.02.


cheers,
wade
 
Well, Harvey, you're right, as usual. Here's the quote from the R84 manual:

"Variable high-frequency EQ as you change the vertical angle. The physics of the long ribbon in the R84 means that its high-frequency response decreases as you tip it either up or down off the main axis. This is in addition to the normal change in level as you move off axis. If you’re interested in a darker
sound, while maintaining midrange presence, experiment and move the R84’s aiming point up or down from where you’d normally aim it."

I guess I read it the first time the way I would EXPECT it to work. To me it's counterintuitive.

Next time I'm tempted to post a rebuttal to Harvey, I'll remember this...
 
mrface2112 said:
i think the fact that Harvey, even with all of his years of experience and knowledge, is more interested in learning something rather than "who is right" is a lesson that everyone here can (and SHOULD) learn from.....and it's something that we as a community should aspire to. life is all about fattening your brain--everything else is secondary.
cheers,
wade
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As I said in an earlier post, Wes Dooley is one of three really knowledgable people about ribbon mics. Wes learned from the late Jon Sank, the original designer of the RCA mics.

Stephen Sank is the son of Jon Sank; he also learned from his dad.

The last is Clarance Kane, one of the engineers that actually worked at RCA on their ribbon mics.

When any of these people speak about ribbon mics, it pays to listen to them - very closely.

If Wes had actually said the R84's hi end goes up when you tilt the mic off it's vertical axis, it would have meant that he found a way to do it. And that would be of interest to me. When I talked to Wes at the AES show where he first introduced the R84 prototype, he didn't mention this as a feature. I still went ahead and ordered a pair, without even hearing them, because I know Wes' passion and commitment to ribbon mics.

When AGCurry made his post, the only thing I could assume is either Wes really found a way to boost the top end when tilting the mic, or it was a typo (and I could have some fun ragging on Wes about it, since Wes is one of those guys that almost NEVER makes a mistake). Either way, I win; I either learn something new, or I have some good-natured fun at Wes' expense.

As it turns out, Wes and I are in complete agreement about the effect of tilting a ribbon mic away from it's vertical axis, so all's well that ends well.

Over the years, I've learned that all a really good engineer has is a huge bag of tricks that he brings to a recording session, based on years of experience. All of us should be stuffing our bags as much as possible, especially those people just starting out.

After 50+ years of recording, my bag is pretty well loaded down. So rather than just throw some of the old tricks out, I get on the Internet and say, "Hey anybody want this trick before I dump it out?"

Funny thing is, that even after I give it away one of my "tricks", it still winds up staying in my bag. If AGCurry had been right, it would mean that I'd hafta modify one of my old tricks, and I'd need a bigger bag.

Hey, here's an old trick from the bag that might come in handy one of these days: "Take a small, flat-faced omni (like a Behringer ECM8000) and face it into the center of your studio glass, about 1/16" away from the glass, and you now have a PZM "boundry mic" that will eliminate a lot of the room reflections and delays - great for use as a room mic to pick up drums."
 
Harvey,

Well, I was obviously wrong trying logically explain what my intuition told me. I would be very interested if you could tell the physics behind it.

Also, since we are on the topic of ribbons I have one more question--it bothered me for sometime. If you remember, once I posted on a hybrid ribbon mic I made:

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=114097&highlight=ribbon

For variable pattern you have suggested invert phase of omni, and this is the logical way to do it.
I have a very nice and very rare book about ribbon mics--"RCA microphones" by Henry Olson. He describes variable pattern ribbon mic as a long piece of ribbon, devided so that one part is a fig8 and another is an omni (with acoustical labyrinth). I think this way early RCA77 were made, IIRC, and I was under impression that both parts of the ribbon were separated and out of phase. I read the passage from his book a few times and he clearly is talking about one solid piece of ribbon. But the thing is that in this case Fig8 and omni would be IN PHASE. Do you have any idea for what is going on?

Huh, aren't ribbons wonderfull?
 
I was doing some reading and came to another conclusion. Many singers get a proper technique going by singing with their heads tilted up to allow their throats to open more. The microphone being upside down puts the singer closer to the diaphragm rather than the mic being right side up leaving the mics body as distance between the mouth and diaphragm.
 
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