Down sized to 5w tube for gigs.

M

MaVN

My band, Good Timing >
You don't need a stack, or a 50 watt tube amp. I see all these excuses because in your mind you'll look cooler by a stack. I saw a few threads about needing a bigger amp because you will be playing a big place. Think about this.. If your playing somewhere big the drums are going to be miced, the bass will most likely be miced, and the guitar will be miced. So no need for a huge amp.

Me and my lead singer both down graded to valve jrs with some pedals and they're awesome. Show up with your tiny amp and go. They also sound pretty good with a good distortion pedal. They can get over a drumset without being miced, so if your playing a smaller gig you don't need to mic them.


Sorry for going off. Just trying to help.

P.s. I have a big stack to. I get way better sounds out of my little amps because I can crank them.
 
I totally posted this on the wrong site lol. Meant to post on ug. That's what I get for reading 4 sites at once...
 
Well, it's here, so let's run with it.

Amp power wars began way back in the 50's or 60', when bands were playing larger and larger venues but PA's were dinky. Think The Beatles at Shea Stadium. PA's could hardly handle the vocals, so guitarist and bassist had to provide their own amplification, and drummers just had to hit harder! (For some reason, guitar amp power development out-paced PA power development, at least for a while.) By the time PA's caught up, the pattern of larger and larger guitar/bass amps and stacks had been established as iconic at rock shows. Nowadays, you still see the stacks, but they are often dummies- only one cab will be loaded with speakers. Roadies everywhere thank their respective gods for that! (One day, I want to see what happens when that one loaded cab gets put at the TOP of the stack, instead of the bottom row... :D )

Of course, you are right- I think guys who have huge stacks are just compensating.;) But I wonder- what is your lead singer doing with a 5-watt guitar amp??:confused:
 
I definitely think there's no need for mega-sized amps onstage. That said, you can't get away with a weeny-sized amp if you want to play very clean and loud; plus, there is a noticeable difference in the frequency range reproduced with a small amp and speaker, when compared to a 4X12. Another disadvantage is that on a larger stage, the cone of sound is very narrow, meaning that if you step a little to the side of your amp you can't hear it and you have to rely heavily on the foldback system. I have a Marshall TSL100 coupled to a 4x12 and I think 100 watts is a bit OTT, but my 50w Marshall valvestate doesn't have the sound or the volume to be as good on a large stage.

The bassplayer in my last band had complete overkill. He used a stack comprising two Ashdown 500 watt heads and an Ashdown 900 watt head, coupled to 4x10, 1x15 and 8x10 cabinets. You can form your own opinions about that. :)
 
Bubba po said:
I definitely think there's no need for mega-sized amps onstage. That said, you can't get away with a weeny-sized amp if you want to play very clean and loud
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ditto ditto ditto.

While I have zero need for a 4X12 and have used 1x12 combos for quite a while now, 5 watts doesn't get it for me. And I own and use a Valve Jr. BTW.

It simply doesn't have enough clean headroom for me with even a pretty soft drummer doing his thing.
Last time I tried it on a very soft jazz gig it just wouldn't keep up until I turned it up to where it wasn't really clean anymore ( I require pristine cleans). On ablues gig it'd do ok since break up is desirable.
my little Orange Tiny Terror does ok but it's so middy sounding ..... that British sound ya' know pip-pip.

I had another 15 watt amp Fender Blues Junior , that I hated but it was also clean enough so for me I think 15 watts is about as low as I can go.

Actually, I mostly use my Mark V combo for everything. Though it'll honk, it's suprisingly controllable with a master volume that really works well. And you can run it 10, 45 or 90 watts. So I use it usually.

And I don't give a crap about having impressive looking gear ...... I have to load that crap in and out of gigs 4 and 5 nights a week so I'm about using the least I can get away with and still sound good.
 
Right.

Miking an amp is fine...but 5W isn't going to cut it because of the headroom, and the Epi VJ has no real headroomn to speak of, though it does crunch really well.

IMO, depending on the amp model (design, tube type, etc)....you'll want something in the 25-30W range to cover all bases.
 
miroslav said:
Right.

Miking an amp is fine...but 5W isn't going to cut it because of the headroom, and the Epi VJ has no real headroomn to speak of, though it does crunch really well.

IMO, depending on the amp model (design, tube type, etc)....you'll want something in the 25-30W range to cover all bases.
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yeah, I never use the 10 watt setting on my V at all. I have the two distortion channels on 45 watts and the clean on 90 to get the absolute most headroom.
I'm not an overly loud player BTW.
 
i got one of those Blackstar HT5s a while back to mess around with in my living room.
it's ok for what it is and all but it sounds like a toy next to a real amp.
 
Some people (not me) use amp modeling striaght into the boards- no dedicated guitar amp needed. And you can mic a small watt amp and run it through the boards. That will certainly do the job, too. The issue for either becomes the overhead. A 5W amp (typically single ended) has it's own sound. If that's the sound you want, you're golden. If not, nothing will emulate a *real* high watt push pull amp pushing 4 (or 8) 12'2. That is a sound all it's own...mic'd or not!
 
I love my ValveJunior! you made a wise investment, and it's got plenty of juice to push a cab, if you happen to play a show where the P.A. is strictly for vocals.

in my practice space, I HAVE to use a cab with the VJ. my drummer, bassist, guitarist, etc. are all way louder than the VJ, unless I push it to the absolute limit

...but headroom is a bit of an issue. forget about a very clean tone
 
While we are weighing in on what power we like to use, I find I am happiest with tube amps in the 15-22 watt range. two examples: Ampeg J12T- 15 watts, and Fender Deluxe Reverb- 22 watts.

I've owned 30, 40, 50, 75, 100 and 135 watt tube amps, and find once I got above 30 watts or so, I didn't really like the sound any better. So, I'm happy with the smaller/mid-sized amps. Oh, and 1 12" speaker, or 2 10's, work for me. I'm happy to mic my amp if needed.
 
I have an all tube amp 5-7watt, and it gets a really nice clean tone at low volumes, so if mic'd correctly, I dont see why it couldn't sound just as good through the PA?
 
CoolCat said:
I have an all tube amp 5-7watt, and it gets a really nice clean tone at low volumes, so if mic'd correctly, I dont see why it couldn't sound just as good through the PA?
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it could ... and as long as you had a good monitor system you'd be able to hear it fine.
I just prefer to get a lot of my stage volume from the amp rather than a monitor.
 
MaVN said:
You don't need a stack, or a 50 watt tube amp. I see all these excuses because in your mind you'll look cooler by a stack. I saw a few threads about needing a bigger amp because you will be playing a big place. Think about this.. If your playing somewhere big the drums are going to be miced, the bass will most likely be miced, and the guitar will be miced. So no need for a huge amp.

Me and my lead singer both down graded to valve jrs with some pedals and they're awesome. Show up with your tiny amp and go. They also sound pretty good with a good distortion pedal. They can get over a drumset without being miced, so if your playing a smaller gig you don't need to mic them.


Sorry for going off. Just trying to help.

P.s. I have a big stack to. I get way better sounds out of my little amps because I can crank them.
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I dont use a stack because I care about looking cool, I use them because they are a part of my sound.The problem with your set up is that you have to rely on a monitor to hear yourself and you have to rely on a soundman when you need a boost.Guitars sound like absolute shit thru monitors and soundmen are bad about getting distracted.
I find the best way to keep a sound man from fucking up what would otherwise be a good show is to take as much control away from him as possible.We just get a light house mix in the monitors with the vocals nice and loud and no guitar in my monitor at all.Guitar boosts and vocal delay tags are switched from the stage.A 5 watt amp will not allow you to do that.
 
Another thing I would like to point out is that if you have been reheasing with your band for a couple of months using your small amp, when you play a big venue that the amp is not loud enough for, you are in for a rude awakening when you step in front of that monitor and listen.It is a complete game changer, and chances are you wont have time to get it like you want it at soundcheck.For me it wouldnt matter if I had all day to tweak it, because a monitor and a guitar cabinet are just not the same thing.
 
SHEPPARDB. said:
Another thing I would like to point out is that if you have been reheasing with your band for a couple of months using your small amp, when you play a big venue that the amp is not loud enough for, you are in for a rude awakening when you step in front of that monitor and listen.It is a complete game changer, and chances are you wont have time to get it like you want it at soundcheck.For me it wouldnt matter if I had all day to tweak it, because a monitor and a guitar cabinet are just not the same thing.
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yup, and that's another reason I use the cab. I can push the amp right to the edge of break-up, have plenty of volume, and not get wrecked by shitty sound guys and their busted P.A.s
 
SHEPPARDB. said:
... soundmen are bad about getting distracted. I find the best way to keep a sound man from fucking up what would otherwise be a good show is to take as much control away from him as possible...
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Hold on, bud. I can't argue your experiences, but you've got some pretty sweeping generalizations going on, there. I gotta ask you to back off of the inflammatory rhetoric. There are several darn near universal truths that you are either not aware of, or ignoring because you may have had some bad times and are blaming the sound man.

First, the sound man has a job that is a whole order of magnitude more difficult than yours. He/she's got to take into consideration all the members of the band, the club, the crowd, how the crowd changes the house's acoustics, etc. etc. While you have only one amplifier to adjust to get as close to the perfect tone you want, he's got yours, the bassist, the other guitarists', keyboardist, amps that drive the monitors (quite possibly many monitor channels,) the FOH (which is usually bi-amped or tri-amped, so there's at least three more channels,) he's got to deal with acoustic drums that are LOUD, but not loud enough to fill the entire hall (balancing those two "louds" is a challenge all to it's own.) He's got devo personalities to deal with, and frankly the point when a sound man decides he has had all he's gonna take from yet another devo can come quite quickly.

And although YOU may not be guilty of these things, frankly, guitarist are typically the worst of the bunch- especially LEAD guitarist. All too often, they have some d**k-measuring contest idea in their heads that they "need" their double stack and 250 watts to drive it, and their "tone" can only be achieved when said amp is cranked to "11." More than twice, I have seen (well, heard:p ) an elusive feedback whine that turned out to NOT be part of the PA system- it was the lead guitarist's rig feeding back, which was picked up by one or more mics and amplified by the house system.

The sound man does not work for you- he works for the venue or event, and he has to balance the venue/events needs for things like a system that will live to work another day with the crowd's desire for more volume- and that's just one pair of the conflicting needs he has to deal with. Still, his job is, in large part, to make your band sound it's best- but if you give him attitude, he has enormous power (measured in watts! :D ) to make you sound like total crap, and make it look like it's YOUR fault, not his. Just like everyone else, sound men talk- mostly, to each other. If you are playing out much in your town or region, and you have spread that "all sound men suck" attitude around much, chances are they know about you- you reputation literally precedes you, and NOT in a good way.

OTOH, if you allow the SM to do his job, many (probably most) can provide you with a stage sound that almost coddles your band in sound, rather than washes over you like a tsunami, and leaves the crowd saying "Wow, that BAND sounds terrific!" Yes, there are a few bad, malicious or just plain incompetent sound men, but don't let a few bad experiences color your view of the entire group and thus start a self-fulfilling cycle. You might want to leave the attitude at home for your next few shows (or, several dozen shows, if you've been spreading that vitriol around your home town,) and see what can happen.

And to the OP- sorry to hijack your thread. You can have it back, now.:)
 
are you a sound guy, stevieb? not tryin to be a d-bag, but you got pretty defensive. it's not our fault it's in the "guitarist handbook" to hate the sound guy.:D

but seriously, IME, the guy running sound NEVER tells me to turn UP. he'd rather be able to control my sound from the board rather than battle with my stage volume, and I completely understand...BUT...given the opportunity, he will(at least the local guys) he'll have my stage volume too low, and just crank the house and monitors. it DOES kill my tone. half of my sound is an amp pushed to right before heavy break-up.

a smaller amp means I can push it harder without having too much stage volume. I get my tone, sound guy gets control of the front of house, everybody wins.
 
I'm well aware of the things a soundman has to do and consider.You illustrate my point that they are easily distracted.I dont treat them like adversaries, I just dont rely on them for things that I or other band members can do for ourselves.A band with good stage dynamics makes it easier for a sound man to do his job.I dont play the volume war game, and you wont hear me feeding back unless I'm doing it intentionally.
What I'm trying to say is that I dont hate soundmen and five watts aint enough.
 
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