Doubling Guitar

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AlecBeretz

New member
So when you record distorted rhythm guitars, its almost always a good idea to double the tracks and pan them to make the guitar big and powerful.


however, in a live application, is there a way with one guitar player that you could simulate some of these effects? possibly like a vocal doubler effect through a second amp? Obviously it won't sound the same but it could really beef up the tone. using two amps could help but that would just layer distortion and EQ, and not have differing sound waves.
 
Just figure out some way to make a short delay between the left and right channels on the PA. There are a ton of ways to do it. You can use the aux/fx send return on the PA or do it between the mic and PA inputs. I use two solid state 2x12 combos as power amps and a processor going into the amps power amp bypassing the amp's pre (fx loop or whatever the amp your using decides to call it). All of my patches have a 7ms delay between left and right unless I'm using chorus or some other spacial effect already. Works pretty well. Experiment.
 
Even though most PA systems are wired in stereo, they are usually run in mono. This is because the audience is all over the place. If you pan something hard to one side, the people standing on the other side of the place won't hear it. So you can do all the stereo stuff you want on stage, but you will be the only one hearing it. (assuming you are standing in the middle and not in front of one cabinet)

Doubling in the studio adds a sense of space, that's why it sounds 'bigger'. Since you will be playing in a space, it really isn't necessary.

For the most part, if it was a good idea, everyone in a one guitar band would be doing it. I've seen all sorts of ideas like this and they all suck in one way or another.

The best thing you can do is get your guitar tone and the bass tone to work well together in the context of your music and get really tight as a band. A great performance will be much more impressive than worrying about minor details of your guitar tone.

One more thing: Always dial in your guitar sound miced up with a 57. If you can get a guitar tone that sounds great through a 57, you will sound great everywhere. Don't get hung up on what the amp sounds like to you, because you are the only one that will ever hear it that way. Your audience will always hear it through a mic...usually a 57.
 
One of the reasons we try to make guitars sound huge on recordings, is that it is needed to give the thing that cannot be had with small stereo speakers, that is there in a live situation. Huge movement of air, ambiance, and balls out volume in a big room. I agree with Greg, in that running a separate cab on the opposite side of the stage will make a big difference, but it really depends on the size of the venue you are playing, and whom it is you are doing it for. You may be asking to much of a PA to do this for you, if this is a 100 seat/stand venue. You will want to move more air for the front row from stage volume. Much more appropriate for a 700+ room, you will likely have side fills that will help to fill the holes. Get into the 1500 plus, and it will matter less, though, then you may be into a stereo system, and you will want your own FOH tech to tell you what works for your tone. And your groupies to tell you your soundman sucks.

Most important to me, is what makes you, and your band members, feel comfortable on stage. I recommend rehearsing in a live staged format, so that all of you are comfortable with your backline sound.

If you haven't already, be prepared for either 'freaking the hell out" with a gigantic PA with side fills, because it sounds wicked cool, or getting lost on a big stage, because you cant hear yourself, because the soundman/monitor guy sucks, and your stage rig is inadequate. Either way, the most important, is to be able to perform with the sound that you and your band are comfortable with.

I am a bit deaf, and used to rehearse with 4 18" subs behind me (miked kit) so that I felt comfortable when we played the venues with huge PA. It kinda sucked tho, when we played local bars, cus it was just not the same. Alcohol made that problem less annoying tho. lol

I do not condone heavy drinking to remedy poor situations. Well, I don't anymore....

lol!
 
Depending on what you want to accomplish, there's many ways to do this; cheap and expensive. Typically, the expensive way is free of ground loops, hums, buzzes, and one output loading the other.
I used to do this years ago when I had hair and played hard rock. A stereo chorus or even a good delay that has stereo outputs can work, and one output can go to say a modded Marshall JCM800 and the other to say a Fender Twin Reverb. Now you don't put them stage right and stage left; you put them close together, and the tones blend for a huge sound that has definition to the crunch. It's not what you asked, I know, but sometimes two mushy distorted guitars just sound twice as mushy as one mushy distorted guitar. Having the second tone even a little cleaner makes a difference, and your chords will have some raunch and clarity at the same time. And just that slight delay makes that huge sound even huger.
These days, people like Radial and Lehle make switchers that can accomplish this, and the Lehle has isolation transformers inside so ground loops aren't an issue. I've used the Little Dual, and if you don't want the one amp on, that's no problem; just switch it out of your loop. When that song comes up that you need that crunch and definition (or why ever else you want two tones), switch it in. Heck, switch between clean and dirty all night, as seen on Eric Johnson's stage. But the hassle of carrying two amplifiers, and getting older, made me give that up years ago. Do it now, when you're young.
 
AlecBeretz said:
however, in a live application, is there a way with one guitar player that you could simulate some of these effects? possibly like a vocal doubler effect through a second amp? Obviously it won't sound the same but it could really beef up the tone. using two amps could help but that would just layer distortion and EQ, and not have differing sound waves.
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Well, it will be the same signal, but using 2 amps really does make the sound bigger! Especially if you separate them by adjusting the EQ of one to have more bass, and the other more treble, and have one set cleaner like ranjam suggests. I got a Live Wire ABY1 switch and tried it out on 2 small practice amps and it sounded huge, even though they were just practice amps set to a moderate volume.

Many other guitarists do this; Dan Auerbach of the Black Keys uses a Marshall, a Fender Twin and some kind of Fender tweed all at the same time. It's a great trick to use when you don't have a bass player.
 
back in the 80's I got caught up in the big guitar system.. spent a lot of money. I had a jcm 800 and a jmp800 (both 100 watts) and an old 50 modded plexi as the front tone, into a splitter mixer (bob bradshaw) and lots of rack effects. into two full stack cabs 1960 a and b's loaded with 25 watt green backs.. I plaid through this rig at almost every show (unless the venue was too small). Both the main power head crapped out on me. I had a little 100 watt rack mount Randall head (blue face). I only paid 200.00 for . Used it and only it into the two bottom cabs. with a delay in the loop. I got more compliments on my sound that night, than in the last two years I had been using the big stereo rig. I started just using the Randall and one 4/12 box , got complimented on my sound almost every time I played after that.

What I figured out, I was giving the sound man less to deal with. He now had a tighter, fatter cleaner sound to send to the FOH.

I then got really stupid and sold all the marshalls.

Now I use a Hughes & Kettner combo on stage, and in ear monitors, so I don't lose sound on stage at all.
 
We used to run half stacks set up on the sides of the stage, facing across the stage. There are a couple reasons for this:
1. sound guy doesn't have to deal with stage wash, so he has control of the mix and doesn't keep screaming about the amps being too loud.
2. you can walk to the other side of the stage and still have your amp pointing at you.
3. you don't need as much guitar in the monitors (if any) because you can hear the amp from everywhere on the stage.
4. in a two guitar band, it is easy to differentiate his guitar from yours because the amps are coming from different directions and not mixed together coming out of the same overtaxed floor wedge.
 
Sound men want to work as little as possible, and I would too, if I were crazy enough to be a sound man. Sound men I knew were drummers had no trouble putting 912 mics on a drum kit, but more than one mic on a guitar set up? Oooooh, that's a little overkill, dontcha think? But the less junk in the monitors, the better, so start with a great stage sound. The rest is gravy. To hear vocals clearly in the monitors, just have vocals in the monitors.
I think the more effects you have (and those 80's rack systems were all the evidence you need) the 'smaller' your sound gets, but also noisier. I don't miss the 80's at all.
But trying to get a 'big' guitar sound in a small (i.e quieter) package is the holy grail guitar players have chased for centuries. That's why there are always products out there that we buy, and sell, trying to get that sound. It ain't gonna happen, so I just enjoy the hunt, without taking anything too seriously.
 
Stereo chorus will do more or less what you want, but good luck getting the sound guy to give a guitar two channels unless it's a bigger venue. Most likely the room itself will give the guitar a bigger sound so it's a bit pointless.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
Stereo chorus will do more or less what you want, but good luck getting the sound guy to give a guitar two channels unless it's a bigger venue. Most likely the room itself will give the guitar a bigger sound so it's a bit pointless.
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The only problem with micing two amps strung together with stereo chorus (besides sounding like 1987) is that both amps will be out of phase with each other. If the sound guy does Mic both amps bit runs the pa in mono, they will cancel out and confuse the sound guy. Not a great plan.

Unless you have your own sound guy, let the guy that knows the pa and the room sorry about making you sound "big". What you are trying to do has been tried for decades without much success, even on big budget tours where the band has control of everything. If it really doesn't work there, you really don't have much hope in a random club with a house sound guy.

The best thing you can do to sound "big" is to have a well balanced guitar tone that is well represented in the midrange, has smooth highs and solid low end. Then its just a matter of performing well as a group.
 
Live my biggest problem is taming the guitar! It gets way too big in a lot of small venues. I just played a place that had super tall ceilings, wood everywhere. It was a reflection nightmare. To me it just sounded like a big way too huge mess.
 
Running your guitar through two chan with a one set on on delay is called the Hass effect and will give that fuller sound the delay setting is easy when you are recording but in a live room the delay is set according to the room size
 
Farview said:
The only problem with micing two amps strung together with stereo chorus (besides sounding like 1987) is that both amps will be out of phase with each other. If the sound guy does Mic both amps bit runs the pa in mono, they will cancel out and confuse the sound guy. Not a great plan.
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That all depends on the type of chorus and the settings. Cancellation could be minimal with some settings. Some stereo choruses put the dry on one channel and the modulated on the other. Some put the dry in the center and two modulated (in the opposite direction) signals panned left and right. I think I saw one that had the dry center and the modulated in both channels but with polarity reversed. On this last one the modulated signal simply disappears if you sum to mono.

But I think it would be better just to use one appropriately sized amp and leave it at that. If you do that the sound guy will put it in the house system and it will be "big". If you go nuts with your guitar rig the sound guy might just skip putting it in the house system.
 
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Just go quadraphonic.
Split the signal in two, send each to a similar stereo effect, put one speaker at the back of the room, one either side & one in front of you.
OR get a nice cross over unit that'll do four & send each to a separate amp & speakers as above.
OR
build a wall down the middle of the room & hang a pair of cabs from the ceiling
OR
well, the live room thing is different from the recording thing & dinky effects sound better live than recorded so sounding BIG isn't so much of a problem.
Sounding good is a different matter entirely.
 
Honestly, I'll play devil's advocate here - there's no point in trying to replicate that live.

Double-tracking is an attempt to recreate the sound of a guitar in a room. When you're jamming out with your amp you hear this big, thick guitar sound, and iot's coming at you from all directions. Both directly from the guitar amp, yes, but also bouncing off the walls and reflected back at you. It's very 3-D. When you toss a mic in front of the speaker, however, suddenly your guitar becomes very uni-directional and doesn't have all those ever-so-slightly delayed sounds coming from every which way. By comparison to the "in the room" sound, it sounds tiny. Double-tracking is an attempt to give it some of that space and depth.

Since, when you play live, you're definitely bringing the room into the picture... I wouldn't get too hung up on any sort of technical solution to that problem, because it's not a "problem" in nearly the same way as it is when you're mixing recorded guitars.
 
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