Door Construction

ENIGMACODE

ENIGMACODE

New member
:D Hello again my friends ...

In the past I've received lots of help from Rod Gervais, Innovations, RICK FITZPATRICK, Frederick and others ...

In the event some of you don't remember my project, I've constructed a free-standing multipurpose rehearsal room in the basement of my small row home. I took the acoustical advice from many of you here on the site. Most surfaces are double layered properly caulked 5/8" drywall totally de-coupled from any existing construction. There are no cutouts in the drywall for electrical boxes. Wiremold will be used to minimize openings. And all the openings are thoroughly caulked.

For obvious reasons of 'tightness', and the custom construction of the room, I need to 'custom-build' two doors.

I researched some data from Auralex concerning general construction of doors, and their characteristics:
"The biggest reason that doors are poor in the area of sound control often has little to do with the physical construction of the doors themselves. The weakest link in most door systems is that they are not sealed well with the floor below them or with the frame around them. You must use a compressed rubber threshold below your door and you must make sure that wherever the door shuts and would normally contact the door jamb it meets foam weatherstrip tape or a rubber gasket."

With this concept in mind, I intend to pay particular attention to constructing tight jambs and seals at the bottoms and tops of the doors.

With limited space, I don't think I'll be able to construct 'double doors'.

Here are current views of the unfinnished door openings:
http://home.ucwphilly.rr.com/livesound/opening-1.jpg
http://home.ucwphilly.rr.com/livesound/opening-2.jpg

Here are a few ideas in regard to door construction:
http://home.ucwphilly.rr.com/livesound/door-2.jpg
http://home.ucwphilly.rr.com/livesound/door-3.jpg

*It may be beneficial to construct the doors with a solid core. In which case I'm considering layering (sandwiching), 2 or 3 sheets of 3/4" Plywood. However I wonder about the wieght of such construction, and the possibilty of warping?

Your feedback is appreciated ....

*Feel free to read my profile :)

Best Regards
Michael Fraticelli
ROCKON@ucwphilly.rr.com
 
Last edited:
My 2¢ on doors...

This past Saturday I bought 12 solid-core doors for my studio at a place in Fort Worth called Builder's Surplus.

These are brand new, interior flush (1 3/8", solid particle board core, faced with birch veneer) doors 32"x84". Very heavy due to the mass. Un-drilled/routed for hardware. I need 32"x80" so I will trim 4" off the bottom.

Each pass-through will have two of these doors.

Cost? $20 a door.

I also bought a window 24" by 72" with 2 pieces of 3/16" glass and a sealed 1/2" air gap between the two pieces of glass. $50.

Seek out surplus yards in your area...
 
Thanx but that won't help me

Thanx pdlstl but ....

As my post reads, the room had to be custom designed. And because of all the low headroom, I just planned on custom-built doors as well ..

I was asking for some feedback in regard to 'CUSTOM' built doors.

I can do it - I have the knowledge, and experiece, I was just asking for some ideas ....

Check the post again - thanx :)
 
I bought solid doors for my studio. The entry way is doubled, so there is a door that swings into the studio, and one that swings out to the adjacent room, both on the same door frame. I replaced the door frame inner moulding with rectangular pieces of oak, to have a flat surface facing each door. I had to narrow them so both doors would close, and put neoprene gaskets on the top, and both sides of these strips. I made it tight enough that both doors compress the neoprene when closed, keeping them tight against the door bolts, so they don't rattle, and are air tight. Each of the two doors have a rubber curved strip on the bottom, that engage with an oak sill on the bottom. This makes a reasonably airtight seal when both doors are closed, locking in air between the doors.

If I had to do it again (and I might redo these) instead of solid pine doors, I'd use heavier, more dense wood, because some sound is transmitted through this 1.5" thick air chamber. I know it's because the doors resonate at low frequencies, even though they are gasketed. Hammer the subwoofer and put your hand on the door, you can feel them vibrate with certain frequencies, even though you can't hear the vibrations in the room.

The vocal booth has one solid pine door, and no gaskets, because I wasn't after absolute soundproofing. Just enough whereas the microphones inside can pick up the vocalist, and not hear the hard drives in my eight recorders spinning merrily. When I record a vocalist or instrument player, I always record dry (no EQ or effects), and use headphones. For recording, I'm only after dry and correct levels. I take care of EQ and outboard use on the mixing phase of any project. I have enough of them that this works for me, I don't have to reuse one outboard for many different purposes.

But, if I ever redo any of this, I would use oak or maple doors. Pine was readily available and inexpensive, and allowed me to get doors up so I could paint, add moulding and door trim.

My last pro studio in upstate NY (long gone) we used hollow steel doors (normally used as a side entrance to a basement, or garage) which are also inexpensive, and after they were reinforced on the hinge side to use threaded fasteners instead of sheet metal screws, two holes were bored in the top of the doors, and concrete was poured in until full.

The doors were extremely heavy, and required massive hinges, however they did not vibrate, oscillate etc. Covered with acoustical foam they were okay as a surface too. Not fantastic, but okay. Much better than bare metal.
 
Hey frederic - how ya doin?

Yes frederic I'm familiar with the efficiency of having a two-door system incorporating the air-space is a great idea for isolation ....

But as my post indicated, this custom-built room has a very small (odd-shaped) door opening at the bottom of the existing basement steps. I had no choice in regard to the size of the door opening. There is NO room for a two-door system. Low headroom, low cast iron heating pipes etc....

Again, I'm only asking for some ideas in regard to building at least ONE custom built door.

Again, if you look at my illustrations, you'll see a model construction of a home-built door with a 2x3 frame covered with 3/4" ply on both sides. Stuffed with fiberglass...

Again, all I'm asking for are some observations to this 'home-made' door construction ....

I can either frame it with 2x3's with 3/4" both sides, or sandwich 2 sheets of 3/4" with an open 2x3 frame one side only.....

In any event, this door must be built by hand - I can do it with no problem ...

Just looking for some ideas ...

Please read the beginning of my post in regard to the information from Auralex ...

Thanx guys ....
 
Enigma,

The info on a double doors was intended for others reading the post. Sorry for the hijack...

Your statement, "*It may be beneficial to construct the doors with a solid core. In which case I'm considering layering (sandwiching), 2 or 3 sheets of 3/4" Plywood. <snip>, and the possibilty of warping? " was addressed by advising you look at surplus centers for standard sized solid-core FLUSH doors. If your width is standard (you didn't mention this), odd height can can always be handled by trimming the bottoms. In addition, a small (1/2" each side) could be trimmed off each side if the width is not standard.

The cost to build doors out of three sheets of plywood wouldn't be very cost effective and not very visually pleasing without a ton of sanding.

"I can do it - I have the knowledge, and experiece, I was just asking for some ideas ...". When I saw the images of doors being built out of plywood with a fiberglass core, I was confused thinking you didn't understand that fiberglass or foam doesn't do the best job of blocking sound. Of course now I realize that you understand mass is the answer and you weren't planning on constructing the doors per the images. My bad...

Again, only my 2¢....

Cheers and good luck!
 
Ok now we're getting close - I hope ....?

pdlstl - you mentioned:

"In addition, a small (1/2" each side) could be trimmed off each side if the width is not standard. The cost to build doors out of three sheets of plywood wouldn't be very cost effective"

Yes Yes - I do understand ALL of this ....

Once again, please believe me when I tell you that the dimensions of the smaller door will 'NOT BE FOUND ANYWHERE' where I can trim only 1/2" or so from a stock door... if this were the case, I would be installing a store-bought door as we speak..

And yes - ok so much for the hollow core door idea - I do understand COMPLETELY that 'MASS' is what you need for isolation ...

Now that we've got all that established, once again I ask you guys:
How bout constructing a door with 2 or more layered sheets of fiber board, or plywood, framed on one side only for rigidity.

"not very visually pleasing without a ton of sanding."
THIS IS NO PROBLEMO HERE FOLKS .....

I got it under control - as Rod Gervais knows, I'm a great 'do-it-yourselfer'

Rick Fitz, thanx for the PDF files, I will read them. But if I may be a bit presumptuous, I do completely realize (as I stated earlier), that the jamb and ALL the contact surfaces MUST sealed as tight as a 'REFRIGERATOR'

Ok let's RECAP:

I just need a few opinions on a 'HOME MADE DOOR', that CANNOT be store bought .....

Thanx again ....

Best Regards
Michael Fraticelli
ROCKON@ucwphilly.rr.com
 
ENIGMACODE said:
Again, all I'm asking for are some observations to this 'home-made' door construction ....

I can either frame it with 2x3's with 3/4" both sides, or sandwich 2 sheets of 3/4" with an open 2x3 frame one side only.....
Click to expand...

Go with the first option, that way you'll have mass-air-mass. Don't forget the insulation, a couple slabs of 75mm rockwool will serve you fine, but forget ply, 18mm (or thicker) MDF is your best bet, cheap heavy and dense.
Good rubber seals and a compression latch of sorts should serve you reasonably well.
For top performance use different thicknesses of MDF on each side, maybe two layers of 9mm on one side and a single 22mm on the other side, with a layer of bitumen roofing felt chucked in somewhere for good measure.

Use three heavy duty ball-bearing hinges and the door should stay put, (as long as the frame can take it!)

Cheers
Deluks

ps, sorry I'm quoting in mm, 18mm is the same as ¾"
 
Hey Deluks - Now we're getting somewhere :)

Hello Deluks

How ya doin? :D

Ok limme understand this:
'MDF' - Medium Density Fiberboard can be used on both sides of my homemade 2x3 framed door. Dense, and cheaper then Plywood! ;)

3/8 inch = 9.5 mm, so I should attach two sheets of about 3/8" MDF to one side of the homemade door frame, and 7/8 inch = 22.2 mm, so I should attach about a 3/4" MDF sheet to the other side of the homemade door frame. And now we have a home-made door with MASS two sides, and a hallow stuffed with fiberglass...

Yes? Or 'Yes' to something like this? :cool:

And Yes - I understand the need for HEAVY DUTY hinges for such a heavy door. I bridged the hinge side of the door frame opening with two 2 cross braces just for this purpose ;)

Sound like I'm on track here finally?

Some info on MDF:
http://www.answers.com/topic/medium-density-fibreboard

Metric Conversion Chart:
http://www.stitchguide.com/stitches/knitting/tips/conversions.html

Thanx so much ....

Best Regards
Michael Fraticelli
ROCKON@ucwphilly.rr.com
 
Last edited:
Yep, that's the way I'd do it.
One point I forgot to mention is that it's probably best to keep the 3x2 frame as a rectangle only, MDF is rigid enough to keep the frame square without additional bracing, which will only serve to transmit sound anyway. Obviously sound can still transmit round the edges but won't be as bad as a z-frame design or similar.

Let us know how you get on!

cheers
 
ENIGMACODE said:
Rectangle only - no bracing! ;)
Click to expand...

Well maybe just the corners, metal brackets on the inside corners should help



ENIGMACODE said:
By the way Deluks, I'm not sure if you're as old as me?
Click to expand...
At the risk of offending you I'd say probably not :D

ENIGMACODE said:
But thought I'd ask you:
Do you remember Humble Pie?
http://www.humble-pie.net/
Steve Marriott, Peter Frampton & company
Click to expand...

Well I've seen Waynes World, and thus know the legendary status attached to 'Frampton Comes Alive'

I might have a Humble Pie album tucked away somewhere in my collection of vinyl hand-me-downs :cool: I'll have a lookie out for some!

Cheers ;)
 
Some thoughts on doors.

In most cases it is in fact possible to put double doors in a single frame, just swinging in different directions.

Absolutely seals are the big issue with doors.

A frequently overlooked factor though is the door knob. An ordinary door knob just has a thin metal escutcheon (ain't that a fancy word) covering a two and a half inch hole! Talk about a flanking path! A better solution would be to just have a pull handle or push plate and a magnetic catch to hold the door in place...no flanking path through the door.

If you get a solid core door it could be trimmed down to whatever size you need because it is solid!

Another often overlooked flanking path for sound is the shim space that normally occurs between the rough framing and the door frame. Be sure that this is filled with something dense and solid.
 
ENIGMACODE said:
But as my post indicated, this custom-built room has a very small (odd-shaped) door opening at the bottom of the existing basement steps. I had no choice in regard to the size of the door opening. There is NO room for a two-door system. Low headroom, low cast iron heating pipes etc....
Click to expand...

Sure there is, you just have to think outside the box... er... doorframe.

Install two doors. One in the existing opening, and one in the new wall you're going to build for isolation. Make the additional door a little wider than the original door.

Put half the lockset on one door, half on the other, and make a metal catch so when they are closed, the doorknobs and deadbolt works from either door. Do not install the lock bolts on the inside door.

Instead, put a linkage between the two doors, so that pulling the inside door, or pushing the outside door, opens both doors in together. Since the inside door is slightly wider than the outside door, the original door opening you are stuck with is maintained, and you've solved the problem of the outside door opening out, hitting the stairs.

Just an idea...
 

Attachments

  • doors.jpg
    doors.jpg
    16.5 KB · Views: 157
Hey Michael. I didn't post those links because of the sealing. I posted them because what the BBC discoverd in MANY tests, on how to construct doors. Read it and I think you will be surprised.

And actually, I have to disagree with Deluxs. Because the airgap is so little, a mass-air-mass door is likely going to have a resonance frequency higher than your walls, so it will be a weak link syndrome.

To quote another forum member:
"MAM constructions perform according to simple mass law below the MAM frequency, you'd be better off filling that empty space with more mass, because the door performs as if the air isn't there anyway (below MAM frequency)."

That is why I recommend a SOLID CORE door(or 2), made of at LEAST 2 layers 3/4" and one 1/2" MDF, but without knowing your weakest link TL of the room, its hard to say.
One other thing. Since MDF is VERY prone to splitting when screws are used in the EDGES. There are FOUR solutions to this problem. Let me know if you are interested and I'll post the solution sections. Personally, I'd use CONTINUOUS 4" SS piano hinge and compression latches and double seals for hardware.

BTW, my memory sucks, but I THOUGHT this wall was a TWO leaf with ONE leaf decoupled via Resiliant channel.....no? Hmmm, if so, this presents a problem. Here is a SIMILAR vocal booth door solution. This is a DECOUPLED 2 LEAF design. Of course, you know me. I like to MAKE IT WORK!! Let me know exactly the makeup of your wall, and I'll draw it for ya, ok?
fitZ


Here is something similar.....
 

Attachments

  • 2LF booth door.gif
    2LF booth door.gif
    46.4 KB · Views: 157
Home-Made door construction ideas

Hello Rick, frederick, & others :cool:

Rick you stated:
"I THOUGHT this wall was a TWO leaf with ONE leaf decoupled via Resilient channel....."

Well limme explain the situation once again:
NO I do NOT have enough room for a double door at the smaller door opening at the bottom of my basement steps - please refer once again to this photo:
http://home.ucwphilly.rr.com/livesound/opening-2.jpg

*If you look closely at this smaller door opening, you'll see my water meter, and gas meter are directly where I CANNOT install a two-door system (double door). Physically can't be done - that's it ....
Trust me guys, I've been around the block here, and I really do appreciate all your help.

Yes this room is de-coupled from the existing structure, but I did NOT use RC.
I used diligent innovative construction with Rod Gervais's help, and built my own ISO brackets to avoid contact of the new framing members with existing framing members. On the interior, I used #2 sheets of 5/8" drywall on most surfaces. And as I stated earlier, I caulked EVERYTHING as per Rod's advice. The room itself could take a hurricane hit and survive. I did read Auralex's tips that a rigid room construction gives you a better shot for an acoustically sound room. And as I pointed out many times before here, this room is strictly a 'multipurpose hobby music room'. Used for my band's occasional rehearsals, and perhaps laying down an occasional track. There is no control room - just one room. Construction in the basement of an old 2 bedroom 1920's row home was quite a CHALLENGE.... I had to use every available inch of room .... (and please let's not get into required head room for a door) it is what it is ..... :eek:

Do I have ventilation?
Yes - as suggested here by 'Innovations', I picked up a 'Supentown' free-standing 12,000 BTU AC room unit requiring ONLY #2 6" port holes for exhausting, and intake .. *If need be I can always open the back house door for more air ....

Getting back to my 'HOME-MADE' door construction:
Rick you stated:
"And actually, I have to disagree with Deluxs. Because the airgap is so little, a mass-air-mass door is likely going to have a resonance frequency higher than your walls, so it will be a weak link syndrome"

Perhaps you're right on this point - although I was hoping to proceed in this way, and be done with it ...

Consider this:
Since I can't install a double door at the bottom of the basement steps here:
http://home.ucwphilly.rr.com/livesound/opening-2.jpg

Would it REALLY matter if this opening had a 2 door or 1 system?
http://home.ucwphilly.rr.com/livesound/opening-1.jpg

And here are some additional room views (in progress)

Another wider view of the smaller door opening:
http://home.ucwphilly.rr.com/livesound/wide-view-1.jpg

Other views of the larger door opening:
http://home.ucwphilly.rr.com/livesound/room-8.jpg
http://home.ucwphilly.rr.com/livesound/wide-view-2.jpg

In so far as using MDF - I can handle whatever fate comes my way:
Being careful NOT to Screw too close to the edges, using a good dust mask because of the urea formaldehyde - whatever - I CAN DO IT BOYS! Lemme at em! :)

Rick you stated:
"Personally, I'd use CONTINUOUS 4" SS piano hinge and compression latches and double seals for hardware."

Not ball bearing hinges?

'CONTINUOUS 4" SS piano hinge' < Expensive? More so than Ball Bearing?

Thanx again ...
Be Back Soon ....
 
Last edited:
This room is de-coupled from the existing structure, but I did not use RC.
Click to expand...
Oh yea, I remember now. I drew a detail. Ok cool, no decoupled LEAVES. That WOULD have required double doors to keep a decoupled leaf from being wasted.
Ok, whats next? :D Oh,
NO I do NOT have enough room for a double door at the smaller door opening at the bottom of my basement steps
Click to expand...

Gottcha!! No double door it is.

Then just make a solid ONE LEAF door, at least 2" thick.

Would it REALLY matter now if this opening had 2 doors or 1?
Click to expand...

Where is that door? Going into the tool area? I need a pic of BOTH DOORS in the same pic.

"Personally, I'd use CONTINUOUS 4" SS piano hinge and compression latches and double seals for hardware."
Click to expand...
Michael, sorry but that was IF you had a room where the door weighed 500 lbs. :D Don't laugh either. One member on another forum used 5 layers of MDF. But the fact is, it STILL WARPED slightly even though he used 4 hinges. This is why the continuous piono hinge suggestion. Actually, IF the scenario called for it, I would weld up an angle iron frame, and rabit it into the door edge. But that is for a room with MUCH higher isolation values than you could do here. Believe me, they exist. Go ahead and build a solid ONE LEAF door at each entrance, use ball bearing hinges. Maybe a compression latchset, but those are really expensive. Perhaps use a heavy duty latchset, and fill in around the mechanism with some kind of epoxy filler or something. Anyway, thats my .02

fitZ
 
Last edited:
Hey Rick - Now we're getting somewhere

Hey Rick ... ;)

You asked:

"Where is that door? Going into the tool area?"

Take a look thru this door opening and you'll see daylilte at the rear of the house (above the rear back door)
http://home.ucwphilly.rr.com/livesound/opening-1.jpg

The music room door opening measures:
6' 4" high, and 32" wide - the depth of the jamb, (wall), is about 5"
And although it would be possible to incorporate a 2-door system here, I don't I think I can because the heater valve controls on the heater are directly where that 2nd door would be opened into....

Sooooo - do I hear 'ONE' solid 2" 'HEAVY AS HELL' MOTHER of all doors, possibly constructed of layered MDF? :eek:

OR

A 'HOMEMADE' two sided FRAMED door with MDF each side with about a 2 1/2" to 3" hollow filled with fiberglass? :confused: :confused:

LET'S ALL GET IN ON THIS VOTE! :D

Thanx Buddy ...

Back soon ....
 
ENIGMACODE said:
Sooooo - do I hear 'ONE' solid 2" 'HEAVY AS HELL' MOTHER of all doors, possibly constructed of layered MDF?
Click to expand...

Hey buddy,

How about this - one heavy mother - made with a solid core door - covered (one side) with 8psf sheet lead - cover that with 1 layer of 3/4" veneer grade plywood. Hold the plywood 1" from the sides and top of the door edges, use a good quality drop seal and matching sill from zero industries, use double gasketing for the door edges - GM Soft Trunk Rubber for the 1st seal and a magnetic weatherstrip for the 2nd.

Makes one heck of a good door - in fact - makes exactly what I've put into pro studios.

Cost with all weatherstripping, lead, new door (home despot), commercial door closure, plywood drop seal sill and latches is about $913.00 tax included - but when you're done you have a door with as much or more mass than your walls and a great seal system - the single door should not be your weak point in the isolation system (which is always the goal).

Good luck however you decide to go.

Sincerely,

Rod
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top