do i own my pro tools session?

vineband

vineband

nothing but a harp
I am on the tail end of producing a mix for a client. This is the first client that has ever asked me for the pro tools sessions and all audio data etc in addition to her masters (20+gigs). I have put 200 hours into the project and don't want to so quickly give away all my work. Hypothetically some producer down the road could open my sessions up, re track a vocal and take all the credit and future money that my edit/mix generates?

I will certainly release the master, but should i release the data?

I am now going to sign producer agreements with future clients but it seems like the pro tools session data ownership would not be in most contracts. Anybody have any thoughts on this?
 
If you compare it to the analog world, I would say that as long as the client pays for the materials, you should have no reason to claim ownership of the data. I would charge a seperate fee for data discs, though. For the few clients I have had, I always make a data backup to store at my studio before wiping the drive space.

You'd have a better chance getting a client to agree to giving you credit for the work you have done. But in the end, it's not your music.
 
the session data should be the ownership of whoever owns the copyrights to the music, be it the artist, producer, label, or other entity
 
Roger Nichols was whining in one of the audio advertisement rags about this very thing.

Let's put some things in perspective.

Edits: Okay, so you think maybe your edit's shouldn't be released to the client? Well, in the old day of cutting/splicing tape, you would release the end resulting tape to the client correct? Of course you would, they PAID YOU to do those edits on THEIR TAPES!

Console settings: Often, the engineer would either have sheets of paper with a layout of the console on it, or would do an audio tape while he talked his way through every setting on the console. This audio tape or sheet(s) of paper would be given to the client, along with their tapes at the end of the session. All this talking and writing was time THE CLIENT PAID YOU FOR.

Plugins: So, what stopped the client in the past of writing down what was inserted on what on the console and writing those settings down? For that matter, some clients would do a SysEx dump of the effect processors after sessions. All the time you spent setting that stuff was time THEY PAID YOU FOR.



I guess we should go back to what kind of agreement you had with the client! If you have a CONTRACT that states you "produced" this session, and are entitled to future monies as a result of your work, then by gawd, you should certainly get that money. But, unless you have some kind of exclusive deal with the production, the client certainly is entitled to go elsewhere with THEIR PROTOOLS SESSIONS and have somebody else mix it, or so whatever to it.

Years ago I mixed a session on a DDA console with Uptown Automation on it. All the mix versions were backed up to disk and the client STILL has that disk. If they were so inclined to go back to that studio and pull up that mix, all the more power to them. It isn't MY production anymore. I got paid in full, under the agreement I made with them in the beginning. They paid me for all hours I billed them for, and for all media they agreed to pay for. It is all theirs! Would I be a bit miffed that they took my work elsewhere and "finished" it? You bet, but would can I do about that? It is their choice to do so, and as long as they have paid me what they agreed to, after that, they can do whatever the hell the want.

You are going to have a VERY hard time trying to find some kind of wording in a contract that would stop a client from taking your ProTools session to somebody else and having them "tweak" it a bit then take all credit. If you didn't agree to some "credits" ahead of time, well, you weren't thinking ahead! ;)

This sounds harsh, but let's make one thing clear my man, it is about the artist, and NOT about the freakin' producer/engineer. If you are ethical and forthright in all your endeavors, you will mostly be given that same kind of respect back!
 
To me, client owns it all unless otherwise agreed. If he really wants everything, waves, data, presets etc, then you must be doing a pretty good job for him to want it and not just take the naked waves to someplace else to continue working. I would be pleased he wants it. One could argue for you to keep copies for yourself for "educational" purposes.
Jim
 
similarly, I work at a video production company. And we shoot most everything we work on. We also build into the cost of production, a housing cost for all the tapes to be stored here. Most people do not care because they don't have anything at home or at work to playback these kinds of tapes. But we do have the odd client ask for their work to be checked out or to keep for good. We've even had clients tell us they want the tapes to be sent over to a different production company for storage. It sucks, the boss complains about it, but we have to do it....they paid for all the production costs.

If a client really enjoyed working with you and likes his/her end product, they'll come back to you. Don't fret about it. It could be she's just a nervous person and would prefer to keep everything herself so that nothing gets lost, stolen, or destroyed accidentally.
 
One more vote for "it belongs to the client". If they just do a tweak or two somewhere else, then the credits should read "recorded and mixed at your_name_here", "Re-mixed at their_name_here", or something to that effect. But as stated above, if no prior agreement exists, you're counting on professional courtesy to keep your name in the credits.
 
If I went to a professional studio, I would probably want the session with all raw tracks, etc., in case I wanted to re-mix it myself or change something later on without having to go back to the studio.
 
I run a small commercial studio. Call me crazy, but it's my policy to burn the entire session onto DVD's and give them to the client when the project is completed.

That way ...

- all the data is off my system
- the responsibility for the project data goes back to the client
- It's easy to restore the project from DVD's if anything needs to be done
 
Seanmorse79 said:
I run a small commercial studio. Call me crazy, but it's my policy to burn the entire session onto DVD's and give them to the client when the project is completed.

That way ...

- all the data is off my system
- the responsibility for the project data goes back to the client
- It's easy to restore the project from DVD's if anything needs to be done
Click to expand...

I have found DVD's to be the most unreliable method I have used for archiving. I have tried to pull stuff back just a month later and has properly stored disks produce MAJOR errors. :(
 
They're entitled to whatever is agreed on in advance.

If nothing was agreed on in advance, then no one's entitled to shit, other than the finished product.

If they decide, after the fact, that they should be entitled to the session files, then I would charge extra. A lot extra, if you should be so inclined. You're giving away not just your work, but your creativity and your "secrets," basically -- for whatever you might think that is worth.

.
 
i've been handed projects to mix that have been (more often than not) striped of all their plugins and all faders set to unity.

but really, i probably didn't want their plug and volume settings...... the client didn't or i wouldn't be mixing it.

but the tracks, definitely theirs. no question.

but if you're feeling froggy hand it to them in the same manner people would have received a tape.

an un-effected, unmixed, multi track session.
 
chessrock said:
They're entitled to whatever is agreed on in advance.

If nothing was agreed on in advance, then no one's entitled to shit, other than the finished product.
Click to expand...
I believe chess is pretty much right on this one, with a caveat.

If not specified or otherise agreed to, no one - meaning neither side- is *entitled* to the whole kit and kaboodle. However, as I understand it (FWTW :rolleyes: ), the way it usually shakes out is that unless there is prior agreement otherwise, the studio retains ownership of the media (master tapes, session notes, discs, whatever). There is the classic story about one of the smartest moves that Ray Charles ever made career-wise was insisting upon ownership of his own masters from the get-go.

However, (I think), at the same time the artist retains copyright on the performance itself; meaning that the studio really can't *do* anything with the content on that master media without permission of the client. It's a little bit of a stalemate.

I'm not sure if the above is 100% accurate, but I think it fairly close. Regardless, the true lesson is - to bring life back to a recent hot thread - that this is another reason why it's important to have an agreement between the studio and the client from the start. Unless one is willing to leave themselves open to client disputes, potential legal wranglings, and poetntial bad rep, just so they don't seem "anal" to some kid who wants to record a garage demo.

G.
 
I suppose a sneaky way to deal with it is to give them the session, minus plugin's/automation/etc. The client won't know until they go elsewhere. If they call asking why it wasn't included, you could ask "Is there a problem with the mix I did? I would be happy to schedule a session to fix it!". :D

I really wouldn't have much problem though including a clause in the studio contract that stated that the client WOULD NOT get anything more than the tracks in a basic PT session with no other data included. If you as the engineer are putting in creative input into the "mix", indeed it should be more or less a "one off" type of thing.

Certainly, unless otherwise agreed to, a person hired to perform in a song on a CD might be a bit miffed if that performance was used over SEVERAL songs. The same could be said of a mix. The mix you contributed to is a separate entity from any other mix that somebody else might have done. It is not unreasonable to expect credit.

It would be almost impossible to prove that another person used your exact mix to build off of though. So, we are back to having a trust with the client.
 
I will freely give a "raw" mix. That will have the track placement for punch ins and such.
Just the wav files would be almost impossible to lign up.

A LOT of work goes into mixing, it's an art all unto itself. I would not like anyone to see all my little mixing tricks and "trade secrets". Yes, some times I will do something against the grain, genius, or flat-out emberrasing. What ever it takes for a good mix. And I don't want everybody to have access to my work's means. But of course access to the means product.

If we were in agreement before hand that they were to have all session files, I would mix as such (without my "trade secrets"). It would be a more straight forward mix.
 
you would be a fool to sever a relationship with a client over a pro tools session. if you refuse to give it to them, they will NOT come back. they will also spread word about the situation. i always assume my client will be taking their sessions. i require them to buy a hard drive. this way, i am not responsible to back the thing up after the project is done. if they lose the data, it is on their head.
 
I usually give the client a dvd with the faders unity and 0 plugins.
I usually make my own dvd's with my mix for storage.
That way if they want me to mix it or change a mix I can open my Dvd.
 
I truly appreciate and understand these arguments... I think for my situation the best bet would be to remove the plug ins and volume settings and give her the audio files & edits. I could only hope that some big shot producer would even want my settings, i am more worried about a novice taking my work and calling it his own. In the past my client has had some serious predator producers do all kinds of shady stuff, so its not too far fetched to think something could go wrong here.

This is the kind of project that i went way beyond what she paid me for... everything was assumed and nothing was written or clearly mapped out. Just one of those 4 month evolutionary projects. Lesson learned, get it in writing.

Are there templates for producer and/or songwriter agreements out there?
 
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