digital rec advice anyone?

E

Escalator?

New member
Hi everyone

I'm looking into buying a digital multi-track recorder and I'm looking for some advice.

The situation is that I *probably* can get a Korg D16 (16-trk digital recorder) for well under the list price. (Although I think they discontinued it, which makes list price meaningless.) I am fairly inexperienced with recording; but I have been doing various kinds of playing and composing for long enough that I think it might be worth my while to start out with equipment that can do a lot, relatively. With that in mind, the D16 for a good price seems like a good bet. But I'm hoping any of you who are more veteran than I am might help make it more of an informed decision.


So here are a few lingering questions I have:

: first, any of you have experience with this particular machine (the d16?) Any thoughts on how it's worked out for you, what it can and can't do, etc.?

: how easy is it to export recorded stuff from a digital recorder like this to a computer-editing program (e.g., ProTools)? Can a digital recorder export tracks to a computer individually?
(I know the D16 has certain editing capability on its own, and if you attach a CD burner you can edit and burn and cut the computer out of the process- but I would like to have the flexibility to use it.)

: For recording multiple musicians simultaneously, how well can fewer tracks of analog substitute for more tracks of digital? For example - if I were recording a 5-piece jazz group, where recording all parts live and not overdubbing was important, could we get a reasonably professional sounding recording by strategically placing 3 mikes rather than giving everyone their own track?

: And more generally...
If a good sound (and a human, not-machine-perfected sound) is important to me, am I likely to eventually wish I were using analog?
Is it recording-newbie hubris to think digital and lots of tracks are necessary for starting out? Would starting off with a simpler analog system be good for me, for reasons of ease and learning the ropes, cost, or product quality?

I realize that these questions are alternately super-general and somewhat specialized. So I'm not expecting comprehensive advice from anyone - but maybe if some of you have experience and know-how related to these things, you can share it.

thanks. and thanks for reading this long message!
 
Here's a long message to answer your long message :) Okay, I'll answer your questions in order:

1. I don't own the D1600, but I do own the D1200mkII, which is essentially the new version of the 12 track brother to the D1600. In short, I have a good idea of what the D1600 can do because it's very similar to what I have. It's worked out very well for me, but I have been doing some fairly unorthodox things like recording myself many times over trying to get a cool "live band" type of sound when it's just me overdubbing a bunch of times. But anyway, it has extremely good sound quality, editing capacity, many effects and modeling features, and a whole bunch of other little things that you can check out on the korg site. I have no complaints. For what you pay, it's an amazing recorder.

2. I have never tried to export files from my D1200mkII to my computer, but I believe that there is a fairly simple way to do so. Again, check Korg's site for all those details.

3. Yes, with decent mikes, you should be able to get a perfectly satisfactory recording of a group without assigning musicians to their own tracks. I have done this myself with merely a single Shure SM57 (yes, I'm poor) and it turned out very well.

4. Well, the sound of my Korg isn't sterile at all...But if you have your heart set on getting a really warm analog tape-deck organic type of sound then I really don't think a digital recorder is for you. But the Korg recorders have amazing sound reproduction (in other words, what comes out of the recorder when you play the tracks back sounds exactly like what went in). As far as operating the unit is concerned, Korg seems to make pretty intuitive controls (I made my first recording within a few minutes of unpacking the thing), but if you get stuck there is always a manual which will tell you in painfully exact detail how to do everything you could possibly want to know. (Hey, it's better than manuals which aren't specific enough :))

Anyway, I hope this helps you. I know I kinda seem super-enthusiastic about Korg stuff, but to tell the truth, I am. Good luck with whatever you end up doing/buying.
 
Hey,
thanks a lot for your input. Hearing someone else's experience is a big help.

Anyone else? The more the merrier.
 
Well....I don't know what your budget is, but for recorders I would go with the Mackie SDR-24. You can find it on Ebay periodically for between $1000 and $1200. It’s 24-tracks and uses Ethernet cables to connect to any PC. You can dump wav files into your comp and use a DAW program to mix with your PC.

Get some good mics, a mixer (or enough preamps) and a SDR-24 and you’ll have a pretty snazzy setup.

Of course I don’t know what your budget is though.
 
I have a Korg d16 and find it very easy to use. Beacause it's an older model now, you should be able to find one really cheap on E-Bay. I'd suggest keeping your eyes open for one being sold with a compatible external cd burner. I have exported wavs a few times into my computer without any problems, as well as imported drum tracks from other systems. Bothe are easy to do, however the d16 (and all Korg units will only read ISO9660 format wavs. Most cd burning programs offer this option though).

The MAIN advantage of the d16 is it's portability. It fits into a laptop bag, or small carrying case, and can record 8 tracks at once in 16 bit mode. This is still the only recorder (that I'm aware of) with this amount of portablity, (14 inches wide) that has eight ins. (Maybe the VF16, but I'm not totally sure). Anyway ... good luck!

Mark
 
I have an old D8 and have gotten some good sound from it....BUT....you have to have some pretty good front end, like a good preamp and mic and maybe compresser. You won't get much out of the Korgs internal preamps. That said, if you can get the D16 pretty cheap and then get say a DMP3 or an RNP and a good mic or two, you can get some very nice recordings if you do it right.
 
Thanks to everyone who's replied since I last checked in... having more input is really a good thing.

Steven Lindsey mentioned the need for an external pre-amp, because the Korg recorder (or yours, anyway) had weak ones.
What would be the effect on the recorded sound of having subpar pre-amps, like the ones on your Korg? I'm just not sure exactly what the qualitative difference is.

And Rvdsm mentioned that if I had a mixer, that would save me needing external preamps.
Why is that - is it because mixers have good internal ones?

I realize that I'm exposing my ignorance of the technical capabilities of different equipment - but what the hell - I'm not pretending to be anything but a neophyte.

thanks thanks
 
The effect? Noisy, muddy mixes....always struggling to get enough signal onto the track without the noise and mud. Finally getting enough signal only to find out it's clipping on you and hissing like a snake. Constant frustration with the quality of the recording. Ask me if I've been there.

The cheap mixers....Behringer, Mackie, Alesis.....etc.... have preamps built in to the mic channels. They aren't much better than those in the Korg but are at least barely useable. The Soundcraft M series mixers reputedly have good (decent)preamps... I have an older Soundcraft Powerstation that I use sometimes and the amps aren't bad. I wouldn't go any lower than that.... look at the M4..M8. Be sure to get a mixer with balanced outputs if you go that route. The Soundcraft M.. also has S/PDIF ouput for recording digitally but the AD converters probably aren't that great.

I don't like the compresser on my D8. Sounds harsh and ugly if you actually push it a little. It will also ruin a stereo mix big time. A cheap Behringer compresser will do the job much better....the FMR RNC sounds good. Good luck!
 
If you don't have good converters, then you really don't need to fuss over the preamp. If you don't have a good preamp, then you really need not fuss over a mic. IMO a mackie mixer/recorder combo is a good buy to start out with. It provides you the ability to expand on the original purchase without having to replace everything. If you buy one of the "all-in-one" units, then you have to work around the confines of what the unit provides/doesn't provide. With a seperate hard disk recorder/mixer you can always swap out one or the other with something better as time and your needs progress.

When the ideal goal is to one day work your way up to having quality equipment, it's best to purchase components rather than one unit that "does it all". That of course is my opinion.
 
Believe me, the converters in the D16 are good enough to make a very nice CD recording and are certainly good enough to be able to distinguish between the Korg preamps and a good outboard and between different kinds of mics. The advice about the separate components ( PC -based recording ) has some merit IF you're looking to get more and more and better and better stuff as you go. But if you just want to make a few recordings as a hobby the D16 will do you just fine and you won't have to be shackled to a mouse.
 
StevenLindsey said:
Believe me, the converters in the D16 are good enough to make a very nice CD recording and are certainly good enough to be able to distinguish between the Korg preamps and a good outboard and between different kinds of mics. The advice about the separate components ( PC -based recording ) has some merit IF you're looking to get more and more and better and better stuff as you go. But if you just want to make a few recordings as a hobby the D16 will do you just fine and you won't have to be shackled to a mouse.
Click to expand...


Shackled to a mouse? Have you ever seen the SDR-24?
 
No...I'll look it up. Thanks. I'm weighing all the alternatives now and am going to upgrade my recorder sometime in 04. I sit at a computer all day most days and don't want to do the same with my recording. But I don't have a lot of ambition for future upgrades. I just want something that will make a respectable recording consistently, easily and quickly. I want to make music not fool with gadgets and constantly be obsessing over the quality, the bit rate, the blah blah... And I've learned that that CAN be done with a 16 bit recorder with 18 bit Ad converters....with the right front end. When I get a recorder that works at 24/41 I won't need anything else. If I ever need extreme sampling rates or $8000 amps for a recording I'll go to a studio that has such.
 
Oh yeah, I looked at those Mackie recorders and said to myself, Well I sure don't want to be looking around in three or four years for a stinkin' proprietary Mackie M90 hard drive that's no longer being made. If I got one of those machines, I'd get one that would accept a standard hard drive.
 
StevenLindsey said:
Oh yeah, I looked at those Mackie recorders and said to myself, Well I sure don't want to be looking around in three or four years for a stinkin' proprietary Mackie M90 hard drive that's no longer being made. If I got one of those machines, I'd get one that would accept a standard hard drive.
Click to expand...

The Mackie recorders have an internal hard drive and a removable drive. I think the internal is just a standard hard drive, but let me check into that.

Thanks for getting my interest peaked though. I did a little more probing into the recorders and learned that the one I wanted to get (SDR-24) doesn't have an ethernet port. That means I'll have to find an MDR-24 or start looking into the Alesis HD24 (although the 10 Mbit ethernet port SUCKS for transferring files to a computer!).
 
I contacted tech support from Mackie. The internal drive can be replaced with a regular IDE hard drive.

I'm definitely not getting the SDR anymore though.
 
For PC recording, the Yamaha 01X surface controller/mixer looks pretty cool. I've considered the Yamaha because I'd like to be able to separate the tower/hard drives from my recording room.....with a long cable....to get away from the fan and drive noise. It has 28 channels I think, effects, moving faders....firewire...for $1500. Don't know though. Still searching.
 
You can't bypass the recorder pres. Yes you'd have to do a DA into the s/pdif to truly use an outboard.... but I use an RNP and some mixer pres with my D8 with the trims all the way down. Vast improvement over the D8 pres but I wish I could completely bypass them. I'm looking hard at the Korg D16XD but you can't bypass the pres on it either. Dang!
 
How About an Akai?

Hi Steven...

If you are looking for 16 tracks with good pre's.... you might want to consider the Akai DPS16. Records at 24bit/96kHz, too.

Howdy
 
Korg D8

I have a Korg D8 I got real cheap and like it so far but I wan t to know can I save the data to my computer hard drive. It has a parallelSCSI port I think. I so How? Also I have some data on a Fostex DMT-8 that I want to use on my Korg. They both have digital optical input and output areas on them. Can I copy the data to the Korg from the Fostex. Please excuse me if I sound dumb. I am new at this and just want to know what all I can do. Thanks
 
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