digital decisions

G

gritzy

New member
Question:

I bought a Rode NT1 a little while back and then began shopping around for a mixer that could power it and would add to my sound (I was recording direct to a Fostex X-34). Even though it was maybe overdoing it a bit, I found a great deal on a TM-D1000 digital mixer and bought it. I then knew that I had to replace the analog Fostex X-34 4-track that I had (and still have) in order to take any sort of advantage from having the TM-D1000 (it's essentailly just a power supply for the NT1 right now), and was planning to do so, but I have reached a dilema.

The main reason that I went with a separate mixer setup originally was because a rep at a music retailer advised me that this was the best option, implying that a mixer/multitrack combo with phatom power would be problematic to find.

Considering that, I bought the mixer and was recently considering the Fostex D-108 as a digital 8-track for use with my mixer (found another good deal). But then I found a unit, the Fostex VF-08, that offers mixing and recording capabilities as well as phantom power to its 2 XLR inputs. I am about as novice as they come, so I was wondering if this would be more appropriate for me than the separate, more serious setup of the D-108 and the TM-D1000. But I am quite committed to this process, and considering that fact as well as the prices that I've found for this equipment, I may be justified in having it. (advice please)

So basically I want ease of use and high quality (surprise) in a convenient digital format that can power my mic. Any suggestions? And don't worry...even if I get rid of my Tascam, I won't be taking a loss so I wouldn't have that big of a problem with it.
 
VF-08

Hey gritzy!

i can't advise you on the D-108 and the TM-D1000 set up, but i recently bought a VF-08. it's definitely good value for your money, but at the same time, bear in mind that quality parts cost and i think it's here that Fostex has cut some corners.

For example the hard disk, on the later version a Quantum Fireball 10GB (the first version was 6GB). These are basically the same as the hard discs you find in imacs from a little more than a year ago. Unfortunately, they're not that reliable when it comes to life span. My imac HD died a couple of weeks ago (15 months of average use), that's when i discovered i've got the same sitting in my VF-08. Some research on the net revealed that tons of people have had problems with their imac HDs.

The good thing is that it's really easy to change the VF-08's HD if you want another brand or more storage space.

The buttons are kinda cheap and small, too. I wouldn't have thought so much about it if didn't have to puch them like a zillion times to get things done. That's another thing, if you prefer knobs for doing eq and settings - look another way.

Next: what are you going to mix down to? If you have a DAT machine, CD-recorder (not the one for computers) or a Minidisc player, you can mix down via the S/PDIF-output (=Sony/Philips Digital InterFace; pls correct me if i'm wrong...). A soundcard on your computer with a S/PDIF and you can feed it onto your hard drive and then burn CDs with a CD-R. If whatever you mix down to via S/PDIF uses optical S/PDIF you'll need a converter - VF-08 uses coaxial S/PDIF. A converter is maybe $20-30.

Or you could mix down through the analog 1/4" outputs.

Backing up your data: SCSI-card (not included) for backing up to an external hard drive. Haven't tried this yet, but i guess you'll have to dedicate a hard drive for this purpose. Another way to back up your data is to use the S/PDIF output to a DAT/CD-recorder/soundcard. MD doesn't work for this.

Where i live, the VF-08 went off the shelves in no time. In it's price bracket - it cleans out. If you can live with the drawbacks, go for it. Sound is great and once you learn the button-pressing-procedures it works pretty well. i suspect that Tascam and the other guys are working their a**es off to get something out that can compete with the VF-08's price. And hopefully Fostex will improve the next version of VF-08 and then we'll really have something to talk about.

If you decide to get it, make sure it's version 1.03 with the 10GB HD you're getting. The difference except from the HD is that 1.03 supports saving data to a CD-R/RW via the optional SCSI-card.

one last thing: the manual...erm...japanlish...

i hope this helps, and i hope i didn't confuse things.

BTW, how's the Rode-NT1? I read about it and i'm seriously thinking about getting one. Have you done any vocals or acoustic guitar with it? Does it pick up a lot of background noise? (i live on a busy street...). I'd really appreciate some input.

mm
 
micmac...

First of all, thanks for the input. You've given me a lot to consider and I have a couple of other questions for you. But let me tell you what I think about the Rode NT1 first. I will start by telling you that I have limited recording experience in general and that the Rode is my first condesor mic, but I do know what I like and that is good sound at the right price. From what I've read (previous to purchasing it) the NT1 is a fantastic value. I think that as condensor mics and serious studio mics go it's fairly low-end, but that hardly matters when you consider the fact that you are even in that range of quality for the price that they are going for right now (149ish at musician's friend marked down from 349 retail). As I said my general experience is limited and my experience with the NT1 is hardly extensive (I got it a couple months ago and have only spent probably 20 hours with it or so) but I can say that it picks up very little background noise. I was recording an acoustic guitar just the other night and my roomate was listening to music in the other room. As far as I could tell it didn't pick up any noise from that and I was right next to the door. At the same time, it's sensitive enough to pick up my amp when I can barely hear the thing without my headphones on. Like, for late night, I'll turn my amp way down until I almost can't hear it and the NT1 still picks it up. But...I have NOT tried any vocals with it yet. I'll let you know if I do anytime soon. So yeah I've been pretty impressed with it so far.

Now, the VF-08...First of all, what would it take to put my tracks on an external Zip drive so that I can bring a Zip disk into work and burn it onto CD here, as I don't have a burner or computer at home? Do I need extra hardware to do that (aside from the drive itself of course)? Can I mix down to that external Zip drive? Does that even make sense? Let me know what you think and thanks a lot.

Lee
 
NT1, NT3

I have a correction to make for you micmac...

The NT1 is 179 at Musician's Friend...the NT3 is 149. Both are good deals if you wanted to consider the NT3. The NT1 is a little more of a bargain though in my opinion. If you're really serious, maybe you want to go to a music store and listen to your options, even if you plan to make the actual purchase on-line or from a catalog, it can't hurt to check them out.

gritzy
 
Thanks!

Thanks for the info on NT-1!

VF08 can save song data to zip drives using SCSI. That data will only be useful as back up files since the VF08 is the only machine that can read those files. Also, that zip disc will be formatted by the VF08 making it for exclusive use with the VF08.

But you can also save .wav files onto an external drive through the SCSI. Depending on how many tracks you have recorded, you will get X amount of wav files. Let's say you have a recording that contains 6 tracks, then you'll end up with 6 wav files. To get those 6 files into one you'll need somekind of sound editing software in which you would mix the files just as in any other mixer and then burn it to CD. This is a pretty interesting thing because the VF08 only has 8 real tracks, but you can also record up to 16 additional tracks. That is: lets say you have recorded all 8 tracks and you wanna have another go at the solo without erasing the solo you already recorded. You can then take the recorded solo and move it to a additional track. It means you're putting it in a drawer for later use, while opening up a track for a new take. If the new solo doesn't really cut the team, you can just exchange that track back to the first one. Since there are 16 additional tracks you could end up with 24 wav files. You can of course erase the additional tracks for storage capacity reasons (on the zip).

Anyways, on a computer you could end up with 24 channels to mix if you have software and hardware that can handle that.

I read someone was worried about synchronizing the tracks once they're in separated files on the hard drive. It's not a problem since all tracks will start at 00:00:00 once they're in your sound editing software and all tracks/files are automatically as long as the longest track/file in the song. Example: you have a song that's 4 minutes, but the solo track has only been recorded between 3min 0sec and 3min 20 sec making it a 20 sec reording. Silent parts will be 'added' to the solo track before and after the actual recording, making it a 4 min track/file.

I don't know if just dumping the wav files into a CD-burning software like Toast would do the trick. Maybe someone could add info on that?

One more thing about the VF08. When i say (or anyone) 8 channels, it actually comes out to 6 if you want to use the VF08's mastering functions. These functions only work on channel 7-8 which are coupled together under one slider. You would have to bounce your tracks down to 7-8. If you just wanna mix down tracks 1-8 as they are (then you would be using 7-8 as a stereo channel), you can of course do that, but you can't apply any eq on 7-8. Only the preset mastering effects will work on those tracks.

And then there's bouncing of course...

Preset mastering effects are a set of eq and effects (eq: hi/mid/lo; compressor; reverb) that you can apply on your mix downs. There are 10 different programs and you can't change the settings (you could leave it out completely of course). If you're not that experienced when it comes to mix down effects, these can be fun to try out. Compressor settings, eq and reverb takes a lot of experience to get right, especially when mixing down. These programs are a short cut and will give you a hint on how to do stuff.

If there's anything i got wrong here, pls, anyone correct me.

gritzy, if you have more questions about the VF08, just go ahead and post.

hope this helps,

mm
 
Re: Thanks!

micmac...let me try and clarify here. You wrote:

"VF08 can save song data to zip drives using SCSI. That data will only be useful as back up files since the VF08 is the only machine that can read those files. Also, that zip disc will be formatted by the VF08 making it for exclusive use with the VF08.

But you can also save .wav files onto an external drive through the SCSI. "

How are these two things different? You wrote in the first paragraph that you can save song data to zip drives but it is then formatted specific to the VF08. But in the second paragraph, you wrote that you can save tracks as .wav files to an external drive for mixing on a computer. What kind of drive? Not an external zip drive I guess?

So are zip drives and zip disks useful only as back-up with the VF08, while the exporting of your tracks as .wav files for mix down to say a burner on a computer requires a different external drive and storage medium as well as software on the computer?

I read on the Fostex website that the VF08 can import and export .wav files on a DOS formatted (FAT16) disk using SCSI re-movable devices. What is that all about?

Thanks again and sorry for the confusion.

gritzy
 
Hi again gritzy,

i read my post again and i didn't understand it until the third time or so... and i wrote that...erm...good work micmac. i'm sorry for the confusion.

the only difference is actually that the VF08 specific song data will only be readable by the VF08, while if you save WAV files to a DOS-formatted SCSI-drive you can upload them to your computer and work with them in your sound editing software. the drives are the same in both cases: external hard disk, zip, mo, cd-r (not very well supported yet, check further down). according to the manual, which is NOT very well written, either of these two ways of saving includes ALL the song data, sound as well as editing stuff, settings etc. haven't tried that yet, though.

Fostex use their own back up format, FDMS-3, which means when you use for example a zip disk or an external hard disk, the VF08 will format it to FDMS-3.

if you want save your work as WAV files, a computer must first format the drive or disk to FAT-16, since the VF08 can't perform that task. but we're still talking about the same external hd's and zip disks.

also the WAV file can of course be burned to CD as audio once it's in your computer, while the FMDS-3 stuff...erm, will work with....hmm...well, fostex. great standard.

VF08 version 1.03 can save data to cd-r/rw also, but only Plextor PX-W1210 TSE/BS was supported when i checked last time (i could be wrong about the model, but it's a Plextor for sure).

zip disk: someone somewhere said something about a 100mb zip disk being too small to save songs to if you use a lot of additional tracks. you might want to check that if you're going to use a zip.

check the fostex website for list of supported hardware. i haven't checked it for a while, but they should have updated it by now.

the weak cd-r support has been on lots of boards including this one. hopefully fostex will fix it sometime in the near future.

hope this helps & hope i made things clearer.

BTW, thanks again for the NT-1 input. i bought one this week. i almost went for the NT-2, but only because it came with a flight case... the NT-1 sounds really good so far. can't wait till the weekend...

micmac
 
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