Damned 388 anyway.... Arrrggggg.........

G

Goldenvoice388

New member
Well, I took the 388 in to a reputable repair outfit in Portland this fall for a tune-up, to the tune of $450. First was hopefully an alignment would fix a #1 fading away. Then a call for a head-re-lap. (ouch) - but, OK, if it'll fix the problem. Then a week later, a call that it needed a bias amplifier... OK, fine, get-er-done.

So on pick-up, a comment about #1 still being a bit "odd".

Well, tonight I ran a 180Hz test tone to check levels.

I charted it out, but, for example, recorded at -10 on the meters, the tracks look like this:
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8
+5 +5 0 -7 -4 -10 -8 -11

Does this tell us anything? I did listen quickly through the channels, and 1 & 2 are indeed louder through the monitor/headphones upon playback. #2 wobbles around by 3 db.

So I aimed for "0" on playback. These are the levels I must record at to get "O" on the meters on playback.

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8
-20 -20 -10 -3 -6 -1 -2 0

Any analogdogs have any ideas? I guess I pretty much feel like not dumping any more $$$ into this thing. In fact, makes me leery of old analog recorders in general.

Is there anything that can be done about $$$'s spent, or is this just the nature of the beast?

How would you handle this?

Help. Goldenvoice :(
 
Diy

I hate to state the obvious, but if they're reputable and you kicked that much in on repairs, [IMO] it should have been done right.

However, 180Hz is not necessarily a valid reference tone to guage overall satiability of the alignments. Depending on how other things are setup on each channel, you'll get varying levels of 180Hz on playback, but there is no Low-Eq adjustment on the 388. It's better to reference a whole set of tones, and note the peaks and valleys in the response. I've found that with only a Hi-Eq adjustment that if you adust for best levels on 12.5kHz, you'd have overall flattest response. With all other things being equal, (and they never are), there shouldn't be a huge bump @ 180Hz on the 388. Maybe a little one.

There are many factors that go into the differences in signal response you're describing. Not to overlook starting from the basics again, such as cleaning the head thoroughly & using another new reel of tape.

I think in general you should press the tech to make good on their repairs, but I think it bears further analysis to determine what's wrong. Of course, sight unseen I can't assume anything, but I believe connections are all important in many intermittent problems with the sound on these machines. The head is also critically important, but if you got the relap as stated,... eh,... ?!?! That leaves the remainder to focus mainly on the setup and adjustments. Unfortunately, it gets back to this, and no doubt that takes bench time.

I feel dubious about any tech repair other than Tascam Factory Service. In the truest sense, unless you were there you can't verify how carefully a tech went through things. F/I,... if you got a relap and they put on the head physically aligned, but did not go thru the record/playback adjustments, then of course the channels would be all whacked out. That's hypothetically if that happened, of course.

I know DIY is not for e'body, plain & simple. There's a lot of cost & training that goes into that, and of course that's what drives tech time charges on the other side. But, there's an assuredness I've felt in aligning these machines, (with years of pro-tech exp.), that I'd not trust anyone off the cuff to go thru this type of gear and set it all up, unless I could watch the entire thing o'er their shoulder. F/I,... I'd need to "see" the positive effect of a head relap. You should be able to see the difference from an original and relapped head with the naked eye. Just things like that, I like to have "positive" verification on, which in large part I'm a DIY'er. When the chips are down, Tascam Service is my friend.

Okay, in black & white, it's DIY or Tascam Factory service for me, and though I'd not condemn the entire bench tech community, I think you have to be very astute with tech services to have them run the machine through it's paces for you, & prove out the machine for you as part of a satisfactory service. You shouldn't have to bust your ass to do it, but that's what DIY is about sometimes.

I'd say, in short, that if you got a relap, alignment & bias amplifier job for $450, then it shouldn't be a huge problem for a tech to do a quick verification. Verifying it is relatively quick. Adjusting it is a giant, time consuming PITA. Any other repair with a soldering iron, meter and scope, is also a time consuming task. There's so many cards and redundant circuits to "do" in a full alignment. Many of them are very fine adjustments. It's mind boggling, but I suppose you've already familiarized yourself with the 388 manual. That's why if anything's amiss in the sound, (x8-channels) there's at least 100 places it could go awry.

I'm sorry, I'm rambling.

Without hearing the sounds, based on the description I can assume nothing. I'm shooting from the hip a bit with generalities. Wish I could help more, but there's food for thought. As a tech, I feel any tech should prove out the machine in demonstration for the repair customer, plain & simple.

ZAP! Almost forgot to mention,... If you're using a single tone, a 1kHz test tone is a more moderate and usable to gauge general levels. The more test tones you have, the more accurate your assessment will be.
 
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No, not rambling but good sense, Dave.

I'd like to echo ARP's post and perhaps underline and add upon, that most of the service sector, in any industry, is crap right now, save for a few good and knowledgable folks out-there. The people you took your 388 to are far from being reputable. They're crooks and idiots. I've learned many a painful lesson during my lifetime and you really should have been more careful with bringing the machine to just anyone calling themselves "reputable" or whatever grandiose term they bestowed on their person.

I'd be very, very suspicious that anything they said was accurate as to what needed to be done to your 388. I would have taken it to TASCAM Factory Service or made a DYI project out of it.

I'm sorry you got took for that much money and if it was me, I'd make a fraud case out of it. I don't know what laws or options you have in your state and you don't provide any info on any contracts you signed or whatever paperwork you have but surely something can be done.

You have to understand that this has nothing to do with Analog equipment but rather the idiot service people who possibly ruined a perfectly good recorder. Yes, it needs to be adjusted, maintained and sometimes repaired but all that happened was that you got took by a bunch of incompetents, who'd be better equipped to flip burgers at McDonald's.
 
MO is that it's hard to assume anything,...

but to press for verification, & so on.

In general (again), I'd tend to trust "old timers" more than younger folk when it comes to really knowing anything about analog gear, but that could be a trap, too. I'm definitely dubious of any repair tech shop other than Tascam Service, in which I have total confidence.

I'd stop short of calling anyone specifically a ripoff artist, but they're out there. Moreover, there are people with uneven or inadequate tech skills and training.

I'd more take the tact that you're not sure of your money's worth in this repair, and I'd impinge upon the tech/shop's time to do a thorough demonstration for me, as part & parcel of what I've paid for upon delivery. As I said, if you kick down that much bread, you want it right, and you dont' wanna bust yer ass DIY-style to prove they did what they did, either a good, thorough job or at all. I'd take the tact that "I'm not sure, could you please demonstrate",... with the techs,... and certainly if you have any question whatsoever, just ask. Make your tests as thorough as possible. Do your demo for them, if necessary, to illustrate what you think is wrong with the machine. Ask them to put up the MRL tape on playback and show you it's flat & even. Etc,... etc,... etc. So what if they think you're a dummy? As professionals they should put it entirely through it's paces, record/plaback on all 8 tracks within 10-15 minutes. 20 minutes at the outside. The 388 records 8x8 & 8-simul. I'd say you could test it and prove it's levels very quickly, so ask them for a "courtesy followup" based on you "not feeling e'thing's right". Try to softball the issue with the tech, at first. You'd have the right to be more demanding if they show resistance, but try the nice-guy approach.

I'm sorry. It's a lot of me to presume anything. It's a tough issue, and you take it one step at a time. There's 2 issues. There's the hardware repair, and there's the satisfactory or unsatisfactory service experience. With a little patience, it should be able to be worked out to both party's satisfaction.

Most people you ask would tell you the 388's a worthy machine, though the track record and aging of any particular machine would vary. Some maintenance issues arise with any machine of this vintage, but most can be overcome.

Good luck.
 
Take any source, whatsoever,...

and use it as a test source. Use a guitar, a keyboard, a CD player, a microphone, etc. Set all tracks to record & record 8-tracks simultaneously by bussing a single source to all 8 pgm-busses. Make sure all levels are even when recording. Then see what you get on playback.

I guess my point is that testing is quick, and almost any source can do it, but 180Hz as a singular test tone is not ideal, in fact would be relatively unpredictable.
 
I still say they're crooks but definitely do as Dave (A Reel Person) suggests on the followup. It's good advice. :)
 
Goldenvoice388 said:
Well, I took the 388 in to a reputable repair outfit in Portland this fall for a tune-up, to the tune of $450. First was hopefully an alignment would fix a #1 fading away. Then a call for a head-re-lap. (ouch) - but, OK, if it'll fix the problem. Then a week later, a call that it needed a bias amplifier... OK, fine, get-er-done.

So on pick-up, a comment about #1 still being a bit "odd".

Well, tonight I ran a 180Hz test tone to check levels.

I charted it out, but, for example, recorded at -10 on the meters, the tracks look like this:
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8
+5 +5 0 -7 -4 -10 -8 -11

Does this tell us anything? I did listen quickly through the channels, and 1 & 2 are indeed louder through the monitor/headphones upon playback. #2 wobbles around by 3 db.

So I aimed for "0" on playback. These are the levels I must record at to get "O" on the meters on playback.

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8
-20 -20 -10 -3 -6 -1 -2 0

Any analogdogs have any ideas? I guess I pretty much feel like not dumping any more $$$ into this thing. In fact, makes me leery of old analog recorders in general.

Is there anything that can be done about $$$'s spent, or is this just the nature of the beast?

How would you handle this?

Help. Goldenvoice :(
Click to expand...

For that cost, assuming you are using good tape (big hint). it sounds like it needs to be returned to check it out. Make sure you have new tape and it is spooling correctly (no fringing on the outer edges and spools evenly)
 
Just a thought here from someone that really doesnt know much, But I would start by trying a higher tone like 1000 and make sure your dbx is off. And check it at a level of maybe -6 or so.
 
Thanks so much for the input. You guys are about my only salvation!

By "Tascam Service", I assume you mean sending it directly to Tascam in (California?). I'm about 45 min drive west of Salem, Oregon. No good techs there. So I checked for Tascam factory Auth Serv Centers. One in Oregon: Portland (remains un-named). 2 hour drive from home each way (on a good day). That is where I took it. Asked first if they were familiar with the machine: "Yes - worked on lots of them - but it's been a couple of years".

I have no doubt they re-lapped the head - smooth and pretty. Bias amp - well, they did give me (old) one in a baggie...

I will try some different tones. (Herm: I will do as you say - also see photos below) I don't have a signal generator, just a "test tones" CD. ***Anything I should be careful of when doing so? I know tones can be hard on speakers.?!

Maybe use "program material" off a well compressed music CD?

*** Images of head if you would please check out. Looks out of whack to me! The first 2 are of the head from the side - looks to be tilted back on the top.



These next 2 took me many tries to get the slight wear pattern to show up in a photo, but already there is a bottom-heavy pattern showing on the head.



So I take by this that track 1 is on the bottom? Or were they trying to compensate for 1, 2, etc recording too hot, by leaning the head back=if 1 is on the top?

My feeling is they were experimenting with what the problem is on my $$$. I feel it probably didn't need a head re-lap - but it's sure got one now - and it sure didn't solve the problem. I should mention the recording level problem was pre-existing. Since I got the 388, it's been odd that way.

Thanks so much for the input.
 
Not sure - I didn't ask, as figured it wouldn't mean anything to me.

Charge on reciept is $170 for relap, if that helps.

On reciept: " Shipped and relapped head. Replaced Bias Module.(left side only) Calibrated channels. > Note: levels and frequency response good on all channels except channel one. Levels good and no distortion, but high frequency limited (head lapping = as good as possible - heads NLA)"
 
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The service description sounds legitimate.

It sounds like they did the setup & all that. HF rolls off at about 16kHz on the 388, so note these comments with this in mind. All channels should be pretty even, (with minor exeptons), by the description on the work order. ;)
 
Ding! Update!

I looked at those photos, and that head is not physically aligned, at all! That head tilt is horrible! I'd discontinue using that machine immediately until that's corrected. You'll ruin your good tapes, and the head wear you'll get will be unrecoverable. For a head-tilt (can't remember technical term) to be that off, it will screw up the recorded sound and response completely!

This means what sounds good on paper is not a proper technical setup at all!

I believe you have a huge issue with that head tilt, to begin with. After correcting that, a proper setup and readings should be possible. I think you have an issue with the tech and the repair. Bearing this in mind, this particular shop may not be the right place to resolve this problem, but I'd seek their "reputable" services immediatly to have it fixed right, because that's what you paid for, in good faith.

Good luck, eh! ;)

PS: there is no "rational" reason to set the head at that angle. It's off. Both the heads should be as parallel to the tape surface as possible. Pls check the manual, and implore the tech to do so also.
 
Also, what's "Needs HLA"?

That's not a standard term, that I know of. Is it needs 'head level adjustment', 'head lifter assembly' or some other thing? Someone would have to define that term for me, but they're noting that it needs 'something'.

However, that does not diminish the grave issue with the head parallelism adjusmtent!!! Pls seek remedy to this immediately, and don't run any more tape over the heads! The head relap is evident in the photo, but the new uneven wear is a huge problem,... (head angle). :eek: :eek: :eek:

PS: the tape lifter is pretty badly grooved.
 
Thanks for taking the time to look the photos over, Dave. Yes, I'm no tech, but understand the basics, and it looks f*cked up to me, too! That's why I posted those photos.

Well, I'll call these guys on their crap work. Dave, do you know whether the #1 track is on the bottom or the top of the head? Might another issue be lying somewhere here, which they (stupidly) tried to even out by head tilt?

They did originally think it was simply an alignment issue. I had even called Tascam (before taking it to Portland), and explained the issues I had been encountering, and they (Dave too?) thought an alignment 'sounded' like all it would need. They recommended I not send it in to them if that would take care of the problem.

So, off to the big "reputable" outfit in the big city (if Oregon has one of those).

ie: I'm guessing an alignment didn't take care of the issue, and thus the re-lap, etc - which still didn't take care of the issue - and stumped a tech or two...

Joe
 
Question: What are the "standard" ethics in the electronics repair industry?

Would the work done so far be considered under 'misdiagnosis'? Do I have a legal leg to stand on? (as if I had money to hire a lawyer!).

Did the fact they called to check before each sending the head for re lap, and replacing the bias amp, free them of responsibility if those 'fixes' didn't fix the problem? Would seem silly, since I'm not a tech, which is why I'm paying them to begin with...

Pissed off :mad:
Joe
 
Joe,

How did you pay ? If you paid with anything other than cash, you may have some options here. Banks and credit card companies can help you with, what I believe this to be, a clear cut fraud case. If you look up "fraud", the very definition fits well here. It is a criminal offence.

Looking over the head picts and seeing what a butcher job they did on alignment (a basic procedure), I'm having second thoughts whether to even bring your 388 to that place again or have any followup made by those crooks.

It's theft by deception / misrepresentation and false advertising. This is a crime and civil violation.
 
Emailed the photo's, with a nice note, to the repair facility who did the work, and received this nice letter.

Greetings Joe,

Sorry to hear the Tascam 388 is not performing correctly. We do warranty the service (parts & labor) that we provide for 90 days. I show the Tascam was picked up from our facility on 11/17/06, so it is well within our 90 day service warranty. If you are able to return the Tascam to us we will have it evaluated within 1-2 days from the time of receipt. Any parts or labor we provided are certainly covered within our warranty policy. If the needed service specifically relates to the parts or labor we provided we will repair the 388 at no additional charge to you. If we don’t need to order any parts I would expect the repair to be completed within 1-2 days.

Thanks for the excellent detail of your photos. I would also suggest bringing in at least one of the tapes / reels that you’re using with the machine. Specifically bring in any tape that may be cutting the head or causing damage. That way we can test the 388 with the tapes that you’ll be using most frequently and make certain the machine will reliably function for you.

Thanks also for your contact and I hope this information is helpful. We definitely look forward to providing you with a fully operational and reliable Tascam reel-to-reel. We’ll look forward to seeing you whenever convenient.

Thanks and best wishes

I still feel like if I have to explain 'why' the head tilt is an issue, and/or that they would have sent it home with me in this condition to begin with, that they must be complete idiots! Makes me wonder what they'll find to replace and charge me for this time :confused:

Options/opinions? Joe :eek:
 
The letter seems like something a politician would write. :rolleyes:

It's obvious they're completely clueless. That they can relap a head but not align it, is idiotic at the very least. Not to mention levels and such. It's not a question of a simple mistake but incompetency at the highest level.

Just to confirm, how did you pay ? Was this an authorized TASCAM repair fascility ?
 
Yes, this is an authorized Tascam facility, but then, they've been 'the' big repair outfit in Portland for'ever', and are "authorized" for nearly everything, or so it seems...

I paid with my Paypal card - mid November, and I believe to claim on that, I would have had to claim within 45 days...

Tascam themselves looked up the best/nearest location for me to take this thing to. Sad part is, I had a bad experience with this outfit years ago (20?). I told the folks at Tascam I was a bit leery for this reason, and they assured me they had only good reports on the particular Service Center. I had high hopes, as there isn't anywhere else in this state (that I can find) to take it... Guess they haven't changed...

I have NEVER had luck getting electronics of any kind being fixed. Period.
ONCE, in my whole life, did someone actually fix a unit right - that's a very poor record. I tend to like nice, vintage things - cars, houses, guitars & amps, you name it. I would like to continue working on a 388. Love analog - love the fact the tape is cheap and long...

:(
 
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