Controlling the Low End

C

crankyelbow

New member
Growing my understanding of phase correlation has helped tremendously here... but I wonder what the folks here do?

My general method for cleaning up the low end

1: Check phase - out of phase = poor bass
2: High pass stuff that is likely only presenting undesirable stuff in the sub 150-200hz range (though I've found a slim line between "thin" and "de-muddifying" )
4: Side chain - anytime the kick/bass are in the same freq range I've found sending a sidechain from the kick to a compressor on the bass works wonders to clean up the low end. Having a 45-60hz tone come in to reinforce the kick can really help too... I've found the combination of kick tone reinforcement and kick/bass sidechaining to provide excellent results in sub-excellent recording situations.

My room/monitor setup isn't good enough to reliably mix the low end, so I typically have to guess... and here I've had no surefire method of success - perhaps someone here can offer some ideas on getting a good low end level mix with less than stellar monitoring equipment.
 
Does this;
crankyelbow said:
My room/monitor setup isn't good enough to reliably mix the low end, so I typically have to guess... and here I've had no surefire method of success -.
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not somewhat contradict this
crankyelbow said:
My general method for cleaning up the low end

1: Check phase - out of phase = poor bass
2: High pass stuff that is likely only presenting undesirable stuff in the sub 150-200hz range (though I've found a slim line between "thin" and "de-muddifying" )
4: Side chain - anytime the kick/bass are in the same freq range I've found sending a sidechain from the kick to a compressor on the bass works wonders to clean up the low end. Having a 45-60hz tone come in to reinforce the kick can really help too... I've found the combination of kick tone reinforcement and kick/bass sidechaining to provide excellent results in sub-excellent recording situations.
Click to expand...
?
 
I would hazard to guess, but it sounds like a pure physics problem. Typical monitors (unless you spend a ton of $$$) have frequency responses of 60-20kHz +/-3 measured in an anechoic chamber. Some may go to 50 but are -3 and the drop off below that is steep. Combine this with the typical small home studio room and you've got no bottom. So this means guess work, until you try your mix out on a quality home stereo or in the car if the car has a sub. You're also doing this as a hobby. How am I doing so far?

My advice? Get a subwoofer. Place it where it sounds balanced. Take out some of the guess work. They're around $400. Then save up some money and do some room treatment. If you start getting clients who will be paying you money regularly then it's time to consider upgrading your setup -- i.e. spending the bundle of money to have the treatment done professionally. I wouldn't throw a ton of money at it unless you own the house and are starting to make money mixing. You can adjust for poor acoustics by checking mixes on several systems and taking notes. It's a pain, yes. But you can do it.
 
Julia_B said:
My advice? Get a subwoofer. Place it where it sounds balanced. Take out some of the guess work. They're around $400. Then save up some money and do some room treatment.
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I would do that the other way around. Room treatment first. Then, you probably won't need the sub-woofer.

Room treatment doesn't have to cost anywhere near a bundle. We're talking treatment, not sound-proofing.
 
Okay I'm going to give the politically correct advice: Hire a pro to come out, take all the measurements, tell you how you need to arrange your room, what you can have in your room, figure out what you need to treat your room, how much it's going to cost to do the job right and balance out all those room inconsistencies, and has a financing plan available because to get a room set right and flat because this isn't going to be cheap. You'd probably be better off recording your midi tracks or whatever you do and sending them to a professional mixing engineer to put together. Or better yet, hire time in a professional recording studio in your area to do your recording. There.

Basically it's going to cost a couple thousand to do a really good job on room treatment, or use a pro. Other than that you're ghettoing it.

Never post short cuts that actually have a chance of working.
 
Julia_B said:
Okay I'm going to give the politically correct advice: Hire a pro to come out, take all the measurements, tell you how you need to arrange your room, what you can have in your room, figure out what you need to treat your room, how much it's going to cost to do the job right and balance out all those room inconsistencies, and has a financing plan available because to get a room set right and flat because this isn't going to be cheap. You'd probably be better off recording your midi tracks or whatever you do and sending them to a professional mixing engineer to put together. Or better yet, hire time in a professional recording studio in your area to do your recording. There.

Basically it's going to cost a couple thousand to do a really good job on room treatment, or use a pro. Other than that you're ghettoing it.

Never post short cuts that actually have a chance of working.
Click to expand...
That's absolutely ridiculous. Room treatment isn't that expensive or complicated. Build 6 bass traps, put one in each corner and one at each first reflection point. That will improve your bass response immensely...and certainly won't make it 10 times worse, like a sub-woofer in an un-treated room would. :rolleyes:
 
Julia_B said:
I would hazard to guess, but it sounds like a pure physics problem. Typical monitors (unless you spend a ton of $$$) have frequency responses of 60-20kHz +/-3 measured in an anechoic chamber. Some may go to 50 but are -3 and the drop off below that is steep. Combine this with the typical small home studio room and you've got no bottom. So this means guess work, until you try your mix out on a quality home stereo or in the car if the car has a sub. You're also doing this as a hobby. How am I doing so far?

My advice? Get a subwoofer. Place it where it sounds balanced. Take out some of the guess work. They're around $400. Then save up some money and do some room treatment. If you start getting clients who will be paying you money regularly then it's time to consider upgrading your setup -- i.e. spending the bundle of money to have the treatment done professionally. I wouldn't throw a ton of money at it unless you own the house and are starting to make money mixing. You can adjust for poor acoustics by checking mixes on several systems and taking notes. It's a pain, yes. But you can do it.
Click to expand...

I'm actually in a large basement (20ftx30ftx7ft?) Concrete floors, a dropped acoustic tile ceiling, and wood panel walls.
I do have a subwoofer, extends into the low/mid 30s fairly well.
My monitors do get to about 50hz or so, rebuilding the cabinets for them today which will hopefully help with lowermidbass clarity.

I'm very meticulous about listening on every stereo I can. I've been at it seriously for a little over a year, hobbyish for about 6 years.. just now really diggin in and tryin to make it sound *good*. I do hope to work with others and make a living with music in some way shape or form! Its truly my passion and the dedication of my mind all day everyday.

Given the above info, do you have any suggestions in how to maximize this setup?


RAMI said:
I'm trying understand this one. One bass cannot be out of phase with itself. I must be missing something.
Click to expand...

If its a stereo track with one channel inverted... but that isn't what I was referring to :). I'm referring to the sub 150-200hz range, whatever information may end up in this range. I've been working on recording my band and one major breakthrough was when I realized the kick mic phase needed to be inverted - the kick went from dissapear to POW with the press of a button.
 
RAMI said:
That's absolutely ridiculous. Room treatment isn't that expensive or complicated. Build 6 bass traps, put one in each corner and one at each first reflection point. That will improve your bass response immensely...and certainly won't make it 10 times worse, like a sub-woofer in an un-treated room would. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

How does room size play into the necessity of treatment?
 
crankyelbow said:
How does room size play into the necessity of treatment?
Click to expand...

Well, pretty much all rooms need some treatment. But, generally, the smaller the room, the more treatment it will need.

You can get a lot of bass-trapping and broad-band absorption for the $4oo (or whatever price was quoted earlier in this thread) that it would cost to ruin your sound even more with a sub. Take a lok at the "Studio Build" forum to see how many semi-handy people built their own traps. You don't have to spend thousands, and you certainly don;t need anyone to come over and tell you where to put your furniture. :rolleyes:.
 
Looking now and about to build my new monitor cabinets. :) My budget is $0, but I've got some materials here and there and what seems like a useable room.

But now lets assume all is well, monitoring ability is top notch... what are some techniques to deliver a nice solid low end without the mud?
 
First thing, you need to start with good 'tuned' monitors. I certainly hope you have experience building speaker cabinets. There is a whole lot more to it than just throwing speakers in a box. In fact, a few cubic inches of space withing the cabinet can make or break the performance of the drivers themselves. Not to mention the calculations for port size, length, and it's relationship to the drivers resonant frequency (Q). Just curious how it is you came to needing to build boxes for your monitors?

RAMI gave such a technique to help get you solid low end without mud.
 
After reading this: Recording Drums

I have a better visual understanding of the situation, and I think my room can be made to sound great with some efforts :)

In a past life I built subwoofer boxes for a living, but the business flopped, I've built literally thousands of enclosures (not exaggerating, I'm 26 and I've been at it since 9), 99% of these were subwoofer or in general bass oriented enclosures, though, the monitor and large room thing is relatively new to me but I do have a pretty in depth understanding of enclosure design.

The speakers I'm building for I don't have any t/s parameters for - pioneer rev car audio components. They are a very clear sounding set, true to the source I'm not sure but they cover a large enough range to be useful. They are superb to anything else I have on hand (which isn't much!). Given the lack of T/S params I have to guess...

Designed for car door use, which is a relatively large sealed enclosure... I may eventually attempt a ported box, but the plan now is a .25 cu.ft sealed enclosure... I suspect a good response into the 60-80hz range, where the subwoofer is going to take over. I've had great luck with sealed monitors in the past - not so great luck with ported. The sub may get a ported box to help it extend a bit more solid into the low 30hz range, but I suspect room placement/treatment with the current sealed box will yield a good flat response into that area. May try inverting the driver to yeild a bit more internal box cubic footage... also no dampening in there now... hmmm :)
 
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