Hi - I'm getting tired of the low output of my ribbon mics & I just don't have preamps that are powerful enough. Music will cover the increased noise floor pretty much but I'm doing audio books now & need it quiet. Does it matter whether I get a condenser or dynamic mic for this? Any suggestions? Thanks.
condenser vs dynamic for spoken audio books
- Thread starter paresh
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dainbramage
New member
It depends how noisy your room is. A condenser would pick up any room noise much more so than a dynamic. Are you sure it's the preamps that are noisy?
Richard Monroe
Well-known member
That's really a contradiction. The noise floor consists of 2 components- self noise, which is generated by components in the signal chain, and ambient noise, which comes from the environment, often called "background noise". If your problem is self noise, the problem may be from inferior components, which produce a lot of noise on their own, from gain staging errors, or from external electrical sources, as with RFI (radio frequency interference) or improper grounding (ground loop hum). In the case of self noise, adjusting gain staging can help. If the problem is cranking up cheap preamps because of the low output of dynamic/ribbon mics, then switching to a condenser with higher output and turning down the preamp gain will often improve things dramatically. If the problem is ambient noise, messing with gain staging doesn't do much. If you switch to a condenser, you'll get a hotter signal, but the ambient noise will also be louder- no benefit. If ambient noise is the problem, you basically have 3 options: 1- turn down the gain and get closer to the mic, so the source makes up a greater percentage of the signal. With directional mics (cardioid/figure of 8, etc.), this will increase "proximity effect". In other words, bass will be boosted as you get closer to the mic. Omnidirectional mics don't produce proximity effect, so you can get real close to the mic without increasing bass. For this you will need a real good pop filter, maybe even 2, or you'll have trouble with aspirated consonants, especially "p", which will produce "pop" from the puff of air you blow out when you voice the consonant. 2- get rid of the damned noise. Turn off refrigerators, furnaces, sump pumps, pool timers, fluorescent lamps, etc. 3- When you *can't* get rid of the noise, increase isolation. Put *mass* between the mic and the noise. Build a vocal isolation booth, or at least use a reflection filter, which is a start. Get that CPU and its damned fan out of the room!
In some cases, if an ambient noise source is in a fairly constant frequency range, such as a humming fluorescent lamp, you can use creative EQ or noise reduction programs to attenuate that specific frequency. Most noise, however isn't like that. Police and fire sirens are the worst, because they oscillate through a wide band of frequencies. In the end, getting rid of ambient noise is always better than trying to deal with it once you've recorded it. This usually means finding a better room, or isolating the one you are stuck with.
I hope that helps. So- what is your problem, really? Self noise, ambient noise, or both?
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
A very good summary of the issues from Richard Monroe. Just a few thoughts to add...
If it does turn out to be noisy pre amps (and many cheaper ones do exhibit at least some noise when you turn them up to, say, 3/4 of the range, then most dyamic mics will have exactly the same problem since they're also relatively low on output level.
In any case, the most common mic to be used for spoken word recording (American radio stations aside) would be some form of LDC. At the high end, the U87 is pretty much ubiquitous but there are cheaper alternatives that are almost as good.
The trouble is, if some of your problem is the room atmosphere, a condenser will make your issues worse, not better. As you've already identified, spoken work not mixed with music etc. is super critical on the acoustics. The good news, though, is that (unlike a lot of music) you don't need to worry so much about the room sounding "good" and more about the room not being there at all. This means you can get away with home solutions like the idea of having movers blankets behind you and up the sides until they're level with the mic. Or, from personal experience, I can say that the pro level of the sE Reflexion filter gives you acceptable results. Years ago (when the Reflexion first came out) I spent 3 days recording an author reading one of her own books. For various reasons she couldn't leave her home so it was all done in her study and the results were good enough to be published (or whatever you call it with audio books).
Hope this helps.
If it does turn out to be noisy pre amps (and many cheaper ones do exhibit at least some noise when you turn them up to, say, 3/4 of the range, then most dyamic mics will have exactly the same problem since they're also relatively low on output level.
In any case, the most common mic to be used for spoken word recording (American radio stations aside) would be some form of LDC. At the high end, the U87 is pretty much ubiquitous but there are cheaper alternatives that are almost as good.
The trouble is, if some of your problem is the room atmosphere, a condenser will make your issues worse, not better. As you've already identified, spoken work not mixed with music etc. is super critical on the acoustics. The good news, though, is that (unlike a lot of music) you don't need to worry so much about the room sounding "good" and more about the room not being there at all. This means you can get away with home solutions like the idea of having movers blankets behind you and up the sides until they're level with the mic. Or, from personal experience, I can say that the pro level of the sE Reflexion filter gives you acceptable results. Years ago (when the Reflexion first came out) I spent 3 days recording an author reading one of her own books. For various reasons she couldn't leave her home so it was all done in her study and the results were good enough to be published (or whatever you call it with audio books).
Hope this helps.
John Willett
Circle Sound Services
My set-up for this would be a Gefell M930 with Pop Killer and duvets to get the room acoustics right. This set-up is a good speech set-up for speech.
Yes, there are other condensers you can use - but choose a clean one without too much colour.
If you have to use a dynamic, then the Sennheiser MD421 is a good choice - I used this a few years back for doing a short speech recording for Ferrari, to be used in a visitor attraction at the factory. I recorded this in my bedroom with a duvet hung behind me to get the room sound right.
Richard Monroe
Well-known member
If that's the issue, you may very well benefit from a condenser mic. I'd try a relatively cheap one first, to see how it works out, rather than spending the big(ger) bucks on a mic like that Microtech Gefell Mr. Willet suggested. I like this for cheap:
Marshall Electronics MXL V67G | 8thstreet.com | Call 1-800-878-8882 | Most Orders Ship Free!
And get a good pop filter. Best of luck.
Farview
Well-known member
You could also try adding another preamp to the chain. I know somone makes an in line preamp that gives you 20db of gain and runs off of phantom power.
Or, if you have another preamp channel, just chain them together. That will allow you to stay out of that trouble zone where the preamp is noisey.
Or a decent LCD will do as well. The dynamic mics that tend to get used for voice over don't have much more output than a ribbon, so you would likely run into the same problem.
Or, if you have another preamp channel, just chain them together. That will allow you to stay out of that trouble zone where the preamp is noisey.
Or a decent LCD will do as well. The dynamic mics that tend to get used for voice over don't have much more output than a ribbon, so you would likely run into the same problem.
Steenamaroo
...
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
Good room + noisy/weak preamp = Condenser mic
Bad room + good preamp = Dynamic mic. (Stay close)
Good room + good preamp = personal preference.
Bad room and bad preamp = write off.
That's just my opinion.
I have a bad room and nice preamps so I go with an sm7b up nice and close.
Almost right but your 4th equation should be:
Bad Room + Bad Pre Amp = DIY Acoustic Treatment Project + Save for New Interface/Pre Amp
Steenamaroo
...
Yeah, fair enough You can always improve what you've got.
I suppose I was being a little tongue in cheek there.
I suppose I was being a little tongue in cheek there.
Richard Monroe
Well-known member
There is another alternative as mentioned above. More clean gain. Consider this:
Cloud Microphones Cloudlifter CL-1 | Sweetwater.com
I've never used one, but a lot of people who have claim it does exactly what it claims.
Cloud Microphones Cloudlifter CL-1 | Sweetwater.com
I've never used one, but a lot of people who have claim it does exactly what it claims.
Farview
Well-known member
This is what I was talking about, but couldn't come up with the name at 5am.
all good advice - thanks. I do have another mic input channel in the mixer - how do i chain them together?
FYI here is my signal chain...any advice on how to optimize it wd be appreciated:
Beyer Dynamic M500 N ribbon mic [I do have a low to high Z transformer I used to use with this mic when plugging into a guitar amp for acoustic guitar, but for some reason it doesn't seem to make any difference in the mixer]
Mackie 802 VLZ3 analog mixer - the channel strip has gain & level - both turned up quite a lot
Edirol UA5 audio interface - output volume up all the way [it's old & has only a stereo I/O but works for my purposes]
routed bk into stereo return in the mixer - level just at unity gain [I cd turn this up louder but since the interface is only 1 stereo I/O, it would raise the level of everything, not just the mic output]
FYI here is my signal chain...any advice on how to optimize it wd be appreciated:
Beyer Dynamic M500 N ribbon mic [I do have a low to high Z transformer I used to use with this mic when plugging into a guitar amp for acoustic guitar, but for some reason it doesn't seem to make any difference in the mixer]
Mackie 802 VLZ3 analog mixer - the channel strip has gain & level - both turned up quite a lot
Edirol UA5 audio interface - output volume up all the way [it's old & has only a stereo I/O but works for my purposes]
routed bk into stereo return in the mixer - level just at unity gain [I cd turn this up louder but since the interface is only 1 stereo I/O, it would raise the level of everything, not just the mic output]
Farview
Well-known member
With that board, you would have to get a 1/4 to XLR cable and come out of the insert on the first channel and into the mic input on the second channel.
Mind you, that mixer is the problem. The cheaper Mackie's do get really noisy when you crank the input past 3/4. Since they don't have much gain, compared to what you need for a ribbon or low output dynamic, you are going to have to jump through some hoops to make that work.
The cloudlifter, or any other external preamp for that matter, would be the easiest way to go.
Mind you, that mixer is the problem. The cheaper Mackie's do get really noisy when you crank the input past 3/4. Since they don't have much gain, compared to what you need for a ribbon or low output dynamic, you are going to have to jump through some hoops to make that work.
The cloudlifter, or any other external preamp for that matter, would be the easiest way to go.
Actually I may have a 1/4" to XLR cable...if I try chaining the 2 channels together just to see what happens, do I set the gain & level at unity for the 1st channel & higher for the 2nd? I'm not sure which is first in the chain - gain? then level (the volume fader) & what the relationship should be between the two?
Farview
Well-known member
Mixing board signal chain (almost) always goes from the top down. Gain is the preamp gain, then the insert, then the EQ, then the aux sends, then the fader, then the pan knob.
If you take the feed off the insert, the signal won't get to the fader (level). You will need to plug it into the insert to the first click, not all the way in.
I would start with the gain on the channel you plug the mic into at around 10 o'clock. Then adjust the actual recording level with the gain control on the second channel.
The relationship between the gain and the level is this. The gain brings the mic level up to line level that the board needs to function in the good zone, as far above the noise floor as it can, but below clipping. All signals should be set for that.
The level control is what you use to control the relative level of each channel during a mix. In theory, if you set all the gains correctly and set all the levels the same, everything would be the same volume. Obviously, when mixing, you don't want everything the same volume, so you adjust that with the level controls.
If you take the feed off the insert, the signal won't get to the fader (level). You will need to plug it into the insert to the first click, not all the way in.
I would start with the gain on the channel you plug the mic into at around 10 o'clock. Then adjust the actual recording level with the gain control on the second channel.
The relationship between the gain and the level is this. The gain brings the mic level up to line level that the board needs to function in the good zone, as far above the noise floor as it can, but below clipping. All signals should be set for that.
The level control is what you use to control the relative level of each channel during a mix. In theory, if you set all the gains correctly and set all the levels the same, everything would be the same volume. Obviously, when mixing, you don't want everything the same volume, so you adjust that with the level controls.
ashcat_lt
Well-known member
This has been pretty well replaced by real advice later in the thread. It's a very commonly held belief, but is completely wrong. The mike doesn't give a damn how far away the sound it's picking up is, it's all about the SPL at the diaphragm and the sensitivity of the mike. Period.