Condenser or dynamic mic?

To answer a few questions, I am looking to record an all acoustic album. Sounds to me like a condenser is what I'd like but unfortunately not what is available at this time, considering how I hear a lot of how cheap condensers all sound the same. Thing is, I am recording with my Zoom H4n and they have built-in condenser mics, I've used them and they pick up on everything, low background hum that you wouldn't notice so easily and what not. I've been told that they aren't suitable for a serious recording unless you want a lo-fi sound, that a standalone condenser would be another world of quality.

Think I might just try the built-in mics anyways and see what I can get out of Reaper. If those mics don't cut it then I'll maybe go for an SM57 or a decent condenser if I get the money by then.

I have heard that the built-in mics on the H4n are capable of a professional recording, though I'm sure a standalone good condenser would be better. Anyhow, gotta start somewhere.
 
Quote Originally Posted by Clarinet View Post
Liking and disliking one mic or another most often depends on its application. I also dislike certain mics when they are used for the wrong application. I also don't care for ravioli for breakfast. Not only the location and nature of its use (small room/big room; nearfield/farfield; live room/dead room; rehearsal/performance; recording/reinforcement, etc.) but just as significantly, the type of instrument being recorded or amplified and the style of music being created. The prevailing wisdom/preference for woodwinds and many strings (violin/cello/small string ensembles) and occasionally brass) is large condenser or ribbon mics. In brighter rooms or with brighter instruments, these mics maintain the fine detail of the sound while taking the some of the less pleasant sharp edges or "bite" off the tone. Those whose music requires bite and sharp edges probably do not care much for condensers.

What does any of that even mean?

What this really means is that it is an excellent idea to know how and why you want to use a mic before you decide which type, make or model is best. There was never any indication of that from the OP until an hour before this post was posted. When one says he likes or dislikes a certain mic without any context of how it is intended to be used is useless, unhelpful opinion. There is no baseline situation upon which to make a meaningful judgement.
 
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I've been told that they aren't suitable for a serious recording unless you want a lo-fi sound, that a standalone condenser would be another world of quality.

This is true, but don't let that stop you from recording. Just keep recording and add more gear as time goes by.
 
To answer a few questions, I am looking to record an all acoustic album. Sounds to me like a condenser is what I'd like but unfortunately not what is available at this time, considering how I hear a lot of how cheap condensers all sound the same. Thing is, I am recording with my Zoom H4n and they have built-in condenser mics, I've used them and they pick up on everything, low background hum that you wouldn't notice so easily and what not. I've been told that they aren't suitable for a serious recording unless you want a lo-fi sound, that a standalone condenser would be another world of quality.

Think I might just try the built-in mics anyways and see what I can get out of Reaper. If those mics don't cut it then I'll maybe go for an SM57 or a decent condenser if I get the money by then.

I have heard that the built-in mics on the H4n are capable of a professional recording, though I'm sure a standalone good condenser would be better. Anyhow, gotta start somewhere.

Thank you for clarifying the purpose of your mic in your situation. While I'm not recording an album (it will be my next lifetime before I am good enough to do that), I did acquire 5 less than $160 condenser mics (both medium and large diameter diaphragms) and compared them with the dual small condenser mics built into my recently purchased Tascam DR40 recorder. The performance of these Tascam mics is probably VERY similar to those in your Zoom. There are several points I want to make for your benefit about this comparison:
1) The Tascam mics did very well compared to all the others. The average Joe might not be able to distinguish any difference. But realize that the diaphragms in the Zoom and Tascam mics are very small, probably 1/8th the size of large diaphragm mics.
2) The critical musician or discerning listener definitely WILL be able to distinguish the other stand alone condenser mics from NOT ONLY the Tascam built-ins, but from one another. If there were no differences in sound quality among the dozens of sub-$150 mics, you wouldn't see all the internet comparisons, discussions, and debates of those mics all over the place. There ARE differences. Many of their specs are different as well: Frequency response (range as well as +/-db throughout the range), sensitivity, noise, polar response and others. Here is a site that describes the function of each mic spec: DPA Microphones :: How to read microphone specifications Unfortunately, some of the most useful specs are not provided for lower priced mics.
3) The slight differences you will hear between condensers manifest themselves in a variety of ways including more highs, a thinner or fuller overall sound, a sense of more or less presence or immediacy of sound or exaggerated "very lows" that pick up room rumble (I didn't have a shock mount on my test mics (except the AT2035), but the mic stand was on a concrete slab) - but some mics picked up the ambient rumble more than others..
4) Unless you have a VERY quiet room or a recording studio, I doubt that the noise floor specs of any of these $50 and up mics will be an issue or noticeable to 95% of your listeners. The room noise in even a reasonably quiet room will overwhelm any internal sound the mic generates. If you hear ANY traffic, ANY birds, ANY transformer hum, ANY talking from outside your recording space, the condenser will make that part of your performance.

Just for the record, the quietest mic of those I tested was the AT2035 (large diaphragm). The most sonically pleasing to me was the MXL Stereo (medium diaphragm; spatial presence due to stereo X?Y pickup). The one that emphasized the high mid-range and highs more was the AT2020 (medium diaphragm). The ones that sounded most neutral were the MCA SP1 (medium diaphragm) and the Tascam built ins (small diaphragm). I will be trying out a pair of CAD GXL 2200's (large diaphragm) shortly. I am listening through a pair of Grado headphones recording WAV files on my Tascam DR40.
 
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Given the caveat that I don't know what I'm talking about I find that a good large condenser will sooner highlight the inadequacy of one's recording space then will a dynamic mic.

My MK4 is female... it picks up EVERYTHING, whereas my SM7B must be a guy because it ignores a lot.
Yes, this is true based on my own experience and just understanding the differences in pickup characteristics between dynamics and condensers. See item 4) of the above post.
 
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IDK? Guess he is an egg and bacon breakfast kinda guy.
Personally I wouldn't mind ravioli for breakfast ... if it was served. :p

I kinda draw the line at ravioli for breakfast but cold pizza, cold Chinese and cold curry are real brekky favourites for me.

I also think the ability of condensers to pick up too much room noise is overplayed. With careful mic placement and aiming I've never had a problem--or at least not a problem that wasn't more than balance by my perception of a much better sound. However, that's just me.

(Or maybe it's an American/British thing--could the typical radio sound in America vs the UK affect tastes in how recordings should sound? That's another topic I guess!)
 
\I also think the ability of condensers to pick up too much room noise is overplayed. With careful mic placement and aiming I've never had a problem--or at least not a problem that wasn't more than balance by my perception of a much better sound. However, that's just me.

I think the same thing as well. I just thought that, within his budget of what seems to be $100, he should go with the SM57. It just seems like the logical choice. I could definitely be persuaded, though.
 
Actually an SM57 is a good compromise for the money. Even as G.A.S. takes over and the mic box gets fuller, there's always uses for the SM57.

It was more the ever-present recommendation that an RE20 or SM7B is the perfect mic for everything that I was presenting an opposing view to.
 
The Mic in thru zoom is really cheap and there is probably some sort of autogain that is making the background noise worse than it normally would be. That is not a good example of that a condenser Mic does.

The only issue you can run into with a 57 will be gain. It is a pretty quiet Mic, if your guitar is quiet and the interface doesn't have a lot of clean gain, you could end up with a lot of noise in the recording.

With a condense Mic, you don't need nearly as such gain, so the self noise of the system isn't a problem any more. The condense will be a lot brighter sounding, which might help get the sound you are after.

The closer you place the Mic to the guitar, the less background noise will be an issue.
 
The Mic in thru zoom is really cheap and there is probably some sort of autogain that is making the background noise worse than it normally would be. That is not a good example of that a condenser Mic does.
The internal mic in the Tascam DR40 was dead quiet compared to most of the other condensers I tested. That is interesting.

And I'm glad there is hope for mic placement for condensers to minimize background noise. Thanks for that bit of encouragement. But the key word is "minimize", not eliminate.
 
And I'm glad there is hope for mic placement for condensers to minimize background noise. Thanks for that bit of encouragement. But the key word is "minimize", not eliminate.

Not holding it out as in any way perfect, but THIS was recorded in a totally untreated domestic living room with forced air central heating and the computer tower (with whirring disks and cooling fans) in the same room. Every mic in use was a condenser (some LDC and some SDC).

I've only put up a short clip since I don't hold the copyright (and it's miles from the kind of music people in HR will like) but it includes some speech rather than singing because that, in my experience, shows up noise far worse than when you can hide things in the mix.
 
Not holding it out as in any way perfect, but THIS was recorded in a totally untreated domestic living room with forced air central heating and the computer tower (with whirring disks and cooling fans) in the same room. Every mic in use was a condenser (some LDC and some SDC).

I've only put up a short clip since I don't hold the copyright (and it's miles from the kind of music people in HR will like) but it includes some speech rather than singing because that, in my experience, shows up noise far worse than when you can hide things in the mix.
Nice recording, but there is no space for any noise to be heard. There are no silent or even quiet passages. But you are right, no noise can be heard.
 
I'll see if I can find one of my original tracks of one of the voices...but I've archived them so it won't be tonight (already almost 1AM here).
 
What's this about an interface having clean gain? Can't I just turn up/down the clean gain of the interface?
Does the 57 have a gain problem?
Maybe I could turn off any such auto-gain on the built-in mics...
 
When you turn up the gain on an amp or pre amp, you're also turning up the gain on the system noise. If the system noise is low enough to start with, you can turn the pre amp all the way up and still not have audible noise. With cheaper pre amps though, it's pretty common for their to be noticeable noise when you get near the top end of the gain--typically from about 3/4s upwards on the gain control.

Couple this with the SM57 being a dynamic which means it has a lower output than a typical condenser and you need to be careful of your choice of mic pre amp. There are certainly interfaces that give you enough clean gain--you just have to pick the right one.
 
The only reason it might be a problem is because some acoustic guitars are really quiet, which forces you to turn up the gain on the preamp quite a bit, especially because the 57 is a quiet mic to begin with. This is never a problem when putting a 57 on a Marshall stack.
 
LOL...you could mic a Marshall stack with a piece of wet string and probably still get a signal!

However, it's not just acoustic guitar that can be an issue--vocals can also get pretty quiet.
 
For acoustic guitar and the kind of vocals that I imagine will accompany it (non-screaming type) I would guess a condenser is the way to go. MXL v67 is a good budget condenser, and I don't agree that you can't record good tracks with inexpensive mics.
 
"A good dynamic is just as good as a good condenser. "

Can I just politely say "Bollox"!
Capacitor* mics have a far wider and smoother frequency response than any dynamic that I know of. Most importantly they have a much more extended bass response, down to 20Hz on the best ones and HF extends to 18, maybe 20kHz. There are even cap mics that reach 50kHz (and I don't mean measuring mics! These are intended for music recording. I don't agree with a post 20kHz philosophy for mics OR equipment but it takes all sorts!)
Because of the extended LF response you will often see a HPFilter on even quite modest capacitors. You don't see HPFs on dymos cos they don't go down that far!

"Sensitivity": As with many everyday terms such as "work", the engineering/scientific meaning is different from normal usage. Sensitivity in a mic simple means the output voltage for a given Sound Pressure Level. Capacitor mics can be up to 20dB (X10) more sensitive than dynamics or even more in rare cases and this leads onto the most common complaint. "Room sensitivty".

Put a 57 a foot from gob and project speech well and you will still need some 60dB of gain from AI/mixer. Replace with a cap' mic and you now have an effective gain of 80dB! IF you had a top line, super low noise pre with 80dB of gain and bolted that onto your 57 IT TOO would pick up a flea's fart at ten paces!

But the customer is always right! I think my AKG P150's give a nice, clean acoustic guitar sound but Son says it is too "klanky" and prefers the sound of the SM57! Fortunately my A&H zed10+2496 is well up to the task. My NI KA6 has to have the mic pres maxed out but still the system noise is quieter than I can get the house, even at 2am!
My best all round starter mic reccy is a small D capacitor.

*The term "condenser" was out of use when I started tech' at 16. I am now in my 68th year!
Dave.
 
*The term "condenser" was out of use when I started tech' at 16. I am now in my 68th year!
Dave.
Apparently it's back again. I've seen it hundreds of times on Amazon, Musicians Friend, Guitar Center, Sweetwater, on this Forum and on just about every manufacturer's web site. LOL.
 
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