Compression

P

polarity

New member
Can compressing the crap out of a vocal make it sound lifeless?

Trying to determine if it's a problem of performance or mixing. I feel like in some cases I'm really feeling the song and singing the crap out of it, but then people hear it and say it sounds like I don't mean it at all..

I'm usually doing a few different types of compression which makes the vocal sound "polished" I'd say, but I do agree.. kinda lifeless....

Then I play it back without the compression and it sounds way more.. flawed I guess? I hear little things that the compression squished I guess...
 
I slam my vocals through a UAD LA-2A plugin. I set it to 80 on gain. It sounds great.

But of course, its a slow compressor, its not like a limiter or anything. Which could be why.
 
The one in question I have 3 different compressors on.. API 2500.. set as 10 to 1 on one.. another api 2500 6 to 1.. then a CLA2A with about 40 on peak reduction and 30 gain
 
polarity said:
I'm usually doing a few different types of compression which makes the vocal sound "polished" I'd say...
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Compression makes things sound more present, not more polished.


polarity said:
Then I play it back without the compression and it sounds way more.. flawed I guess?
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Without compression, things don't sound more flawed - they sound like the level's not stable.
 
A) If you're not absolutely happy with the vocal performance on its own -- No effects, no compression, no EQ for that matter, maybe go back and do it again.

B) 90% of your volume / gross dynamics adjustments should be made using fader automation. That'll take care of the overall level, while adding a compressor later on will change the dynamic personality of the signal.

C) No doubt - Heavy compression is going to reveal "flaws" -- in pretty much everything. The core sound, technique, even the technical abilities of the gear.
 
Compression can do all sorts of things, good and bad. How's your mic technique? Do you at all control your vocal by "working the mic"?
 
polarity said:
The one in question I have 3 different compressors on.. API 2500.. set as 10 to 1 on one.. another api 2500 6 to 1.. then a CLA2A with about 40 on peak reduction and 30 gain
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That is a bit much. The CLA2A should be enough to get the vocal to sit well. I've never liked the API on vocals, personally. But I can't see how having that much compression would sound good ever.

That is probably your problems.

However, keep in mind that there is a difference between having a feeling while you are performing and conveying a feeling through your performance. The former is easy to do, the later is not.

But, I'll be the lifelessness is the supreme amount of over compression you have. Any one of the compressors you have should do the job, and you are piling three of them set on kill. Way too much.
 
Thanks guys

And I am aware that my terms may not always be correct, I was doing the best I could do describe how it felt to me so I could get some feedback.

The compressors I got when another member helped me with some stuff I was working on. It is what he likes on a particular song, so I have been trying to use that as sort of a base line and playing with settings from there (he didn't use the CLA2A). I started adding it because I thought it added a neat sound. I guess the trick there might be to figure out how to make it not do much but add it's sound.

To reply to one part Massive: It's not so much that I feel like the performance is bad before I start messing with it, but to me when I play it back it sounds like me singing a song. Not so much like ' a singer singing the song '. So usually I'm looking to make it not sound like me anymore (without autotune or any of that). I don't really know the term used and I don't want to just say make it sound professional, but make it sound like it wasn't just some dude in a bedroom. Maybe because most of the music I listen to is heavily compressed I learn more twords that sound? That was my reasoning anyway, doesn't make it correct.

I still haven't started using EQ on any of my vocals, I guess maybe I need to start learning that.
 
Massive Master said:
B) 90% of your volume / gross dynamics adjustments should be made using fader automation. That'll take care of the overall level, while adding a compressor later on will change the dynamic personality of the signal.
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90%? Really? Wow. I automate the main peaks and some of the louder passages, but maybe I should be doing more. So basically, compression's for dealing with the level issues 'that automation can't reach'?

Massive Master said:
Heavy compression is going to reveal "flaws" -- in pretty much everything. The core sound, technique, even the technical abilities of the gear.
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Yeah, but he was saying that he hears the flaws when he *removes* the heavy compression. It's like he doesn't like the sound of his own recorded voice, and he's applying compression as a way to camouflage it.
 
Yeah, but he was saying that he hears the flaws when he *removes* the heavy compression. It's like he doesn't like the sound of his own recorded voice, and he's applying compression as a way to camouflage it.
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This would be exactly it. I've struggled with not liking my voice for a long time, even though I love singing. Jimmy and Steeno here on the site have given me tremendous help and confidence. Until I posted a song here no one knew I liked singing. My wife (been together 16 years) had no idea I could sing. It terrifies me. Since working with those 2 though I've posted several clips, they have helped me with trying to understand mixing and things are getting much better but it's very much still a guessing game for me. I took what Jimmy did with my first song, then applied it to all songs after (even though different styles, genres, sounds) and tried to do edits from there to get the same result, obviously that's not working very well as mixing is much more than just a copy/paste template.
 
dobro said:
90%? Really? Wow. I automate the main peaks and some of the louder passages, but maybe I should be doing more. So basically, compression's for dealing with the level issues 'that automation can't reach'?
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I do that pretty much on all vocal tracks....and even for other stuff.
My use of a compressor ends up being more for flavor and a little "glue"...and not so much for level adjustment/control.
 
Well that suits me fine then because I really don't much like the sound of compression compared to the uncompressed sound. I've tried different compressors, but nothing really appeals much. I use it cuz I have to, not because I like the way it sounds.
 
For me, I compress to get the sound of compression, not to tame the dynamic range. If you have something that is really dynamic and only use compression to smooth it out, you will end up with something that has an inconsistent sound at a consistent level. (due to the vocal being into the reduction inconsistently)

If you like the sound of the cla2a, just use that. You really shouldn't need two compressors on your vocals. If you have all the CLA stuff, try the 1176 emulation. One of the presets in there should do the trick, he is one of those mixers that compresses the snot out of his vocals. Either the 1176 or the LA2A should get you what you want. With your setup, you have one compressor smoothing out the massive pumping from the compressor before it and another one doing the same thing to the one before it. One of those other two will work so much better.
 
If I find I have to compress the vocals heavily due to the type of some or the way the vocalist delivered the vocal, I use parallel compression, one channel of heavy compression and one channel of no compression. Find the right blend between the channels and it can really save the day.

Alan.
 
witzendoz said:
If I find I have to compress the vocals heavily due to the type of some or the way the vocalist delivered the vocal, I use parallel compression, one channel of heavy compression and one channel of no compression. Find the right blend between the channels and it can really save the day.

Alan.
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That is also something I have done as well. Usually not though.

When I recommended to Polarity to use two compressors, it was not about squishing them to hell. I will use one to take the edges off, then another to smooth out the tone. The settings for either of them are relative to the source given. This is just what I do and what works for me in most cases (as it did with a vocal track I worked on for him). Obviously this would be after manual adjustment of levels or moving parts of different singing style or level to different tracks. This scenario does not really apply to this as he is pretty much singing songs that don't involve screaming or different levels between verse and chorus. And it is not metal...

I have best results myself by using two levels of compression (used lightly) as opposed to using one instance to get the sound I like. This is obviously dependent of the source given and what it is mixed with. I couldn't possibly say to anyone that one comp works for everything, nor could I give settings for one or five of them that will work for them. It just does not work that way. Well, not for me anyway.
 
jimmys69 said:
That is also something I have done as well. Usually not though.

When I recommended to Polarity to use two compressors, it was not about squishing them to hell. I will use one to take the edges off, then another to smooth out the tone. The settings for either of them are relative to the source given. This is just what I do and what works for me in most cases (as it did with a vocal track I worked on for him). Obviously this would be after manual adjustment of levels or moving parts of different singing style or level to different tracks. This scenario does not really apply to this as he is pretty much singing songs that don't involve screaming or different levels between verse and chorus. And it is not metal...

I have best results myself by using two levels of compression (used lightly) as opposed to using one instance to get the sound I like. This is obviously dependent of the source given and what it is mixed with. I couldn't possibly say to anyone that one comp works for everything, nor could I give settings for one or five of them that will work for them. It just does not work that way. Well, not for me anyway.
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There are always many ways to get the result depending on what you have and what you want in the end, I have also used the 2 compressor set up, maybe a little different to what you did Jimmy, something that does work for me when I have vocals that are very dynamic and hard to keep in the mix: Have the first compressor set up as a limiter, fast attack, fast release, high ratio. The first compressor is them set up to only work on the loudest peaks. The signal is then sent to a second compressor where a much soother attack, release and ratio is set up, this compressor is set to act on the signal to some degree most of the time. What then happens is that massive peaks do not get to the second compressor and the second compressor can add to the vocal without getting smashed by the occasional peak.

However, there are many ways to an end and remember there are no rules, only what works for you is what works, so try things and see what you get. Also remember that not all compressors behave the same so you need to try different compressors for different needs.

Alan.
 
Yeah I in no way meant to apply that Jimmy gave me some settings and said "you're all set for everything, use this". It's what he did on one song and I was trying to use it as a baseline on others.

Maybe I need to start playing with automation instead of doing more with compression. I found when I used the 2 2500s it made the vocal quiet, plus I like the sound the CLA2A added so I used the 3rd to up the gain and give the sound. I should probably start with automating then go back and try some compression and see how it goes.

I'll take any tips or information you feel like sharing, I can post examples or whatever.
 
Again, try using just the la2a. You can get pretty far into the reduction before it starts sounding bad.

Here's the thing, different compressors react differently. The api is a completely different animal than the la2a, which is completely different than an 1176...none of which sound like the compressor in an ssl channel strip or any of the stock compressor plugin in your daw.

If you find yourself having to use three of them to get close to what you want, you are probably using the wrong compressor for the job. (or the vocal is performed with terrible technique)
 
I won't deny my technique is probably poor. I sing in the shower, or garage when no one is around. Singing into a mic is new, while I try to control my volume while singing by moving back from the mic a little it is still a pretty sensitive mic.

I don't have the 1176 or SSL so I can't test those but I can test out some others and see if I find a sound that works.

One quick question because maybe I'm not fully understanding how a compressor works. If looking at a wave form we see the peaks. The compressor basically moves those peaks down whatever the set amount is. The attack would be how fast it starts to reduce that peak, and the release would be how fast it lets go and lets it play at it's original state. What is the knee (hard and soft). Also I'm guessing if you were to actually apply a compressor to the track instead of as a plugin you would actually see these changes in the waveform? Is that all correct more or less?
 
A soft knee means the compressor has a smooth transition from 1:1 to the ratio you set. A hard knee means the ratio goes immediately from 1:1 to your set ratio as soon as the threshold is crossed.

Definitely edit the gain (not volume) to address gross volume changes and those that happen over larger amounts of time, around half a second or more. Use compression to control dynamics over smaller volume and time ranges, especially when you want to impart dynamic effects related to the rhythm of the track.

Although I often recommend not using compression during tracking to beginners, I do it on stuff I'm familiar with. I may compress a few dB during tracking, edit the track, and finally compress it a few more dB. Multiple stages of compression does work if you do a little at a time. And limiting a bit and/or editing can make a downstream compressor behave better.
 
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