Completely new and clueless to the entire recording process. Complete newbie :X

G

Graham2017

New member
First off, I posted this a while ago, with little feedback probably due the the title being about 2 specific programs probably on a fraction of the people here use... Anyways, here it is.

Hey folks!
I would first like to say, I'm new to the site, and have found nothing but helpful information, and others in need like me on this site :P.
A little backround, I'm currently 16 years old, I've been playing drums since I was 9, and I'm in a band (pretty generic eh?). Heres my kit setup:

Yamaha Stage Custom Drums- 12", 13", and 16" toms (I use the 13 and 16 as floor toms)
Tama snares - 14x7 Maple Artwood Snare, 13x3 Hand Hammered Steel Soprano Snare
Zildjian Cymbals - 15" A Custom Fast Crash, 17" A Custom Projection Crash, 8" K Custom Splash, 21" Z Custom Megabell Ride, 16" Oriental China Trash, 14" Quick Beat Hihats
Sabian Cymbals - Medium Max Stax (14"/12")

Heres the other setup I have to work with:
Guitar - PRS McCarty Custom Single Cutaway (no longer made, due to Gibson's Lawsuit)
Guitar Amp - Dyna-Touch III Stage 1600 Guitar Combo Amp
Guitar Pedal - Boss GT6
Bass - Fender American Precision Bass
Bass Amp - Hartke 350w head with 4x10 cabinet (400w)
Mic - Shure SM58 Vocal Mic (Dynamic)
PA - 2x Crate PS215HDT Speakers, Crate PX900DLX Powered Mixer (12 Channel)
I have a little Tascam 414mkII (4 track analog recorder) That I use rarely, and I'm trying to step it up to using my computer.
- All of this stuff is in my house's recroom which is carpeted, really soundproofed walls, and is about 22ft x 45ft. I hear this makes a difference in recording technique, so I edited this in. If it would be better, I have an unused room in my house which is around 14x16, and all unobstructed walls. My gear can be easily moved there, if its a better recording enviroment.

So Heres the deal, I'm currently in the process of getting a vocal mic for myself (the drummer) and we've been playing alot more together and shows around town. For refrence, we just played a school battle of the bands performing 2 incubus covers, a primus cover, and a phish cover / jam.
For fun, I picked up 2 programs: Adobe Audition 1.5 and Sony Sound Forge 7.0. Only problem now is, I have no idea how to use either of them. Sure I have read the manuals, but neither of which tell me how to actually run sound into my computer. I have a Year-or-2-old Soundblaster Audigy Platinum sound card on my computer currently.
Say if I wanted to start multitracking my entire band onto my computer (1 Drum, 1 Guitar, 1 Bass, 2 Vocals) and to fully implement ourselves and sound into either of these programs, what will I need to do so?
I'm wondering if I should just run an audio cable from my mixer to my sound card, or if I need a more fancy mixer (digital) where I can run a USB or some better, quality connection directly to my machine.
I wondered today, how do the pros do it? I couldent get an answer out of my parents, or friends, but they have to be doing something other than just running a mm thick cable from those huge mixers to a computer, that seems as if it would compress wayyyy too much quality to work, thats just me though, I could be wrong...Hey! I'm in the newbie section, arn't I?!
Speaking of computer, heres my computer at this point, I randomly upgrade parts every now and then:
Pentium 4 2.4gig processor
1gig DDR pc2300 ram
ATI 5950pro 256mb video card
Soundblaster Audigy Platinum sound card
40gig harddrive (OS only)
160gig harddrive (Store all)
Sony DRU-700A Dual Layer DVD Burner
TDK 52x CD Burner

If you really didn't feel like reading all of that crap, and just tried to get down to brass tacks, heres what I wanna know:
With the setup I have listed above, what would I need to do to setup my computer and all of my music equipment to get the best sound out of these recording programs I have?
If I need anything more to get a good sound, please enlighten me, I have money to spend if I have to. I read elsewhere that all I need for a good drum mic setup is 2 good overhead condensers, a snare mic, and a bass drum mic. If someone can confirm this being cool, please do, that sounds like the cheapest way to go.
If you you know anything about audition, I would probably rather be working with this one, seems more user-friendly and fun...I could be wrong, I always liked Cool Edit Pro 2.0...

Thanks to all of the higher generations passing their knowledage down to the up and coming, I really appreicate it, in advance!
Thanks again,
Jamey

(PortnoyIsTheBest) Had to throw that in
 
part 2

2nd part: (not trying to boost post count, just trying to make the whole thread make a little bit of sence...)

I have that mixer I stated above, the Crate PX900DLX 12 channel Powered Mixer. I know I can get my hands on a sound card that I can run my RCA cables into (looking at a mid ranged E-MU system). I have that 4 track analong recorder that I'm posative doesnt have USB or any outs to my computer.
http://www.crateproaudio.com/produc...s/PX900DLX.html
^Thats the mixer I own.
What do mic preamps do in comparison to just plugging them directly into the PA mixer? I'm honestly clueless.
Also, will getting a E-MU setup for my computer help? I think what it does is just have the RCA inputs on cords comming out of the card... Correct me if I'm wrong. Will the E-MU get me better sound quality when recording compared to my audigy?
Here are the 2 cards I'm looking at. If you know of anything better in the $50-$200 range, post them please!
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7...ase_pid/240390/
or
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7...ase_pid/242512/
I still have little knowledage of what these cards exactly do, info on those would be great as well!

Thanks in advance,
Jamey
 
Well, I'll try.

You basically need some kind of soundcard/interface to get sound into your computer. This much you seem to understand. Use the search feature here and type in "soundcard" and sort through the resulting threads to see if you can find some useful information. Basically, you'll want one with the requisite number of inputs you want to be able to track (record) simultaneously. If you for instance want to be able to record your drums with four mics, you'll need an interface with four analog inputs. If you get a simple two channel interface, you'll need to mix all of your mics in your mixer and just send the master output to your soundcard 2-channel input. In this case, you'd want to be sure you can send a line level signals out of your powered mixer to your soundcard.

Your links didn't work. The only one I really intended to check was the one for your powered mixer. Every mixer (I'll hazard a guess it applies to yours) has preamps. These are the little gain pots where you plug your microphones into your mixer. If your mixer has direct outputs on each channel (unlikely) then you can use your mixers existing preamps to feed into your computer soundcard/interface. If not, you'll need some different preamps. Many soundcard/interfaces are available with preamps. There are numerous on the market right now that incorporate 8-channels of input with preamps on each channel. This type of box would connect to your computer with a Firewire cable. Most pro-audio computer DAW interfaces at this point are connecting via Firewire or ADAT optical cable, which are both capbable of routing 8-channels (possibly more in some cases) of audio into your mixing/editing software package.

As far as your computer specs go, I have no idea whether your machine is capable of effectively running your software package for audio recording and mixing. Check the manufacturer's specs for the software and see if they have minimum recommendations. You can also search this board for this topic as well.
 
Jamey I'll help you where I can.

If you are serious about drum tracking (as you are a drummer), one Mic most likely isn't going to cut it for you for very long. With your computer, I would suggest the M-Audio 1010LT. It's a PCI soundcard with plenty of ins.

h++p://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=rec/search/detail/base_pid/701376/

After reading about your mixer(I looked at the manual) it seems to me you'd be able to get a MAXIMUM of 4 mono outputs from it at a time. (L, R) Main & (L, R) ALT (main 2?). So, if you had the above soundcard, you'd be able to record 4 mics at once. All in mono. I think. You'd most likely have to buy a few 1/4" to RCA adapters.

As you can see, with 4 outs, it isn't much. You COULD just all play at the same time and get your recording that way. It'll work. OR you could mic your kit with the 4 mics, and have the other guys play to your headphones. That way, you'd get a nice kit recording you could mix and match later in mixing. After your part is recorded, you could play the recorded drums either to headphones, or over the PA and record the other parts on 4 different tracks.

I'm sure someone else will have a better way of doing it.

But, with that setup, I believe you COULD just record all at once Guit, Vocal, Bass, and 1 mic on the kit. It won't be the best recording ever, but do what you like. The easiest way I can think of is to have the bass play all by himself with headphones on after all the guits and drums are recorded. Or the other way around. Use 3 mics on the drums, and one on the bass. Then go back and record again with the guits, vocals etc.

Hope that helps a bit.

But, with your audigy, all you have is 2 mono ins, R&L. You can make due with that, and record 2 tracks mono at a time, if you want.
 
jeez guys...

i like to help and everything...

but these posts here have way too many words
 
i think an 8 channel usb or firewire interface would be cool.

soundcards with all kinds of wires coming out look like a nightmare.

i use a usb interface and love it.

mine is 2 channels cause i dont need 8. i use a small mixer so i can keep various instrments set up and ready.
 
Once again, I lost you. I'd love to look into my options - such as the listed USB interface, or firewire - but I have no idea where to look or what to look for. Any info on that would be great.

Thanks a million for the GREAT feedback so far, great community here :D Finally someone who knows what I'm talking about.

Jamey =)
 
I think the first thing you need to settle on is how many channels you want to be able to track simultaneously to your computer. If it's only two (possibly up to four), you can likely get by with a PCI soundcard or USB interface. If it's over that, you'll likely need to get a firewire or PCI soundcard interface. You can read up on some of the alternatives at any pro-audio web based retailer (e.g., Sweetwater).
 
Yo Graham. Good news- You have some killer gear, especially the computer. Bad news- you have no front end. That crate mixer barely qualifies as live gear, let alone recording gear. First, you need either an interface/DAW (digital audio workstation) or a specialized soundcard and a mixer. Being a drummer and playing in a band, you will need a bunch of tracks, which means a bunch of preamps, which usually means a mixer. Then you will need 2-4 channels of better preamps, which are generally not found in mixers, short of a Neve console (ooh baby!) USB will not give you enough simultaneous tracks. Firewire gets you to 8, which is marginal, but do-able. Then you will need some mics. You will need to decide which software to use, and there are a lot of choices.
This is way too much to detail in one post, but this is how I did it. I started with a Digi002, which is an 8 channel Pro Tools firewire interface. It contains all the software of Pro Tools 6.1 and a crap load of plug ins. It's 8 channels include 4 with preamps and 4 without. They aren't really great preamps, but they are OK for extra drum tracks, which don't require great pres. Into the other 4 channels I plug an Avalon AD2022 ( a pricey, kickass mic preamp) and a Joemeek twinQ ( a mid-priced 2 channel channel strip- that's a preamp with EQ and a compressor built in). I'm adding a fairly cheap 8 channel preamp with digital optical out, which adds 8 channels, so it's 8 by firewire and 8 by optical S/PDIF. All told, that's 16 simultaneous channels in, and a total of 32 available tracks. Woo Hoo!
Most of the time, it's just 2 channels into the Avalon. I'd rather do 2 tracks that are great than 16 that are mediocre. A band is a whole different animal, and drums suck up tracks. As you said above, 4 tracks for drums is fine, if they are good tracks.
The other route is to use a mixer into a sound card. That's often cheaper, but is more tricky going in. Once something is mixed, you can't unmix it. In the end, you'll have more control if you record the smallest possible number of tracks at one time, with the best mics and preamps you can afford. You might consider a Digi002 rack (just like mine, except without the hardware mixer, so you have to mix in the computer) to start. That'll give you 4 tracks of middle of the road preamps, and inputs for more channels as you aquire the gear. It also gives you lots of software plugins, and the ability to add more. I'm really just learning this computer recording thing, and Pro Tools in particular, but I will throw out some guidelines on mixers, preamps, and mics, which I know better.
First, mixers- I don't use them much, but here's what I do know- I know the price on that Behringer is tempting. Don't do it. For pretty cheap, the Yamahas rock. Mackie is a functional middle of the road item, at least if it says "Pro" in the model number. Soundcraft and Allen and Heath are my idea of pretty good mixers.
Preamps- Don't be taken in by tube hype. Big muckin pres with power tubes are very cool, and wicked expensive. Cheap preamps that have a small tube in the front end so they can claim to be "tube" amps generally suck. Cheap pres that work pretty well- M-Audio DMP-3, Joemeek 3Q. Mid-priced pres that don't suck- FMR audio RNP, Groove Tubes The Brick, Sytek. High priced pres- there's a whole bunch- Avalon, Pendulum, Great River, Manley, Martech, Universal Audio, D.W Fearn, Summit Audio, the DBX blue series. When you get into that price range ($1000+ per channel), they all rock. Duh. All I can tell you is I chose Avalon AD2022 and a Joemeek twinQ, and they work for me.
Mics- there are dynamics, small diaphragm condensers, large diaphragm condensers, and ribbon mics, which are a very specialized form of dynamic mic. Some condensers have tubes in them, and are often used for vocals. I would say, as cool as they are, ribbons are something you should consider later, when you know more about mics. What I think you need up front is- a couple of good dynamic mics, at least one badass dynamic, one large diaphragm multipolar condenser for a workhorse all-around mic, a pair of small diaphragm condensers, a dedicated kick drum mic, and when possible later, a dedicated vocal condenser. These are my choices-
Dynamics- cheap- Shure SM57. better-Sennheiser MD421, Beyerdynamic M201. Killer- Electrovoice RE20, Sennheiser MD441, Shure SM7B.

SD condensers cheap- Marshall MXL603 better- Studio Projects C-4, Rode NT5 Better- AKG C451, Shure SM81 Better-Josephson C-42, Neumann KM184
To die for- Schoeps, DPA.

LD condensers cheap-Oktava MK319, ADK A51 Vienna and Hamburg edition Good cheap to mid priced workhorses- Shure KSM 32, AKG C2000B, AT4033, B.L.U.E. Baby Bottle
Better workhorses- AKG C414 (there are multiple models- I prefer B-ULS because it's the cheapest and works, and XLS because it is, IMHO, the best of the lot. They all rock.) , and Shure KSM44. You can't go wrong with either one.

kick mics-cheap-ATpro25 Better- it depends, if you like an old vintage sound and like to mic up bass cabs, AKG D112. If you want a more modern crack in your kick sound, Audix D6. Note that the RE20 and the Beyerdynamic mentioned above are also good kick drum mics.

main vocal mics- there are bizzillions. Some are tube mics. First, any of the dynamics in the "killer" category above may be perfect for the singer, as may any of the workhorse types. For cheap, I like the Oktava MK319 and AKG C2000B, but I sure would like to hear those ADK mics. For mid priced, I like Rode NTK, Studio Projects T3, and AT4060. When you get into high end main vocal mics, the sky's the limit, but the names that keep coming up are Neumann, B.L.U.E., Brauner, Soundelux, Microtech Gefell, Lawson, and the higher end ADK mics. Soundelux U195 and Lawson L47 mkII share first place as possible best bang for buck.

Anyway, there's enough to keep you busy researching prices and specs for days. Sites- 8th street.com for huge inventory and good prices, Full compass for killer prices that you often have to call for, Mercenary.com for high end gear and personalized service. Best of luck.

P.S.- You've already spent a bunch of money on gear, and you're very young. People will try to tell you not to buy top notch gear because you aren't ready for it. You can learn to record just as well with great gear as you can with cheap gear. And great gear lasts longer, sounds better, and retains it's resale value better. Every good project studio is made up of a bunch of cheap gear that works, and a few selected pieces that really are pro stuff.-Richie
 
Thanks for the great, in-depth reply Rich!

Now a couple questions.

1. This whole sound card is sounding like the best idea for me. I already have AA1.5 and also Sound Forge 7.0. If I got one of these MAudio cards or other brands, how the hell do I set them up?
I thought the point of the sound card was to get a higher kHz rate so it sounds better going out of a mixer into your computer. By looking at the pictures of these fancy multitrack soundcards, I can tell theres a much larger purpose to them rather than going straight in from a big powered mixer as I have.
Here is what I picture this being like:
exe0iy.jpg

(the arrow I put with no caption was what I thought a connecter of all the cables from the preamp would go into the sound card.)

Thats more than likely wrong. But thats the only thing I can think of making sence.
The only other way i would think of doing it would be to get the low Z mic cable looking thing and plug it into my mixer...Which I know would be wrong.

2. How does the whole multitrack thing would card specifically? What would the difference be mainly for me? I know I will be using 4 mics total for my drum kit. Kick mic, Snare mic, and 2 overhead condensers. I guess I will buy a good mic preamp and get those mics into that box, then hook the sound card up to it and run it into my computer via this new card I will buy?

I'm honestly clueless on what to do regarding the sound cards, but it sounds like the route I will take.
If you could explain how the whole multitracking thing and the PCI soundcard will work, that would be very helpful. Also, a list of bare minimum of what I would have to buy to be set up great to start this. I'd look at midrange gear with a couple thousand dollar budget.

Thanks a ton again,

Jamey
 
Also, I was wondering if this kind of setup would work for the guitar (with multitrack soundcard setup)

exe20xe.jpg


And, sorry for the crappy pictures, just doing them on the spot, trying to put what I think should happen into a picture to help you guys try to understand how stupid I am :P

Edit* I went to 8thstreet and made up a cart of what I thought I would need...

1558 MXL603s Package 2 Mics 2 Cables MXL-603s Instrument Condenser 2 Pak w/cables $199.99 $199.99
11530 MY500 Bonus with 1558 $0.00 $0.00
8121 D6 w/ LowZ cable Kick Drum Mic & 20ft Whirlwind cable $199.00 $199.00
1361 SM57 SM57LC Cardioid Dynamic Microphone $89.00 $89.00
24677 SM PR8 Eight-Channel Mic Pre-Amp $99.00 $99.00
Subtotal: $586.99

Once again, I'm on a budget, but I could spend a little more than this, and also have to have room for a sound card within the $100-250 area.
If you could ammend that cart to something realistic in my price range, please fill me in! I'm ready to buy when I'm told I'm not about to screw up :P

Jamey
 
Wow, talk about a complete change in heart. I went to the local music store here, and they pretty much lectured me on the whole system. They were pretty nonbiased on what I should buy either, consider they didn't carry the product, and told me to look online. They gave me a huge list of options, this wasnt specifically listed, but I came across it, and I thought to myself...Thats ME!

Heres what I'm buying:

Mics
2x MXL993 Condensers
1x Audix D6 Kick Mic
1x Shure SM57 Dynamic Snare Mic

Recording Equipment
PreSonus FIREPOD - 24-bit/96K FireWire Recording Studio
PreSonus HP4 - Four Channel Headphone Distribution Amplifier
M-Audio Studiophile BX5 Powered Studio Monitors Pair

Extra
Audio-Technica ATH-M40fs Headphones

Total where I could find best is $1,566.87 .

The website for the firepod deffinitly turned me on to the whole FireWire interface in the first place, and seemed exactly like what I need. Plus, 1600 isn't too bad, and still in my price range.

Looks like I wont be using my soundcard, mixer, or PA in this process, which is amazing, and I heard recordings with this firebox setup, and it sounded absoutley amazing. I guess, I'll listen to any rants on the firebox before I press the 'buy' button :)
Yea, any details / warnings on the firepod or other things I listed, enlighten me. If you think I can get something better for a better price (excluding the firepod, not sure if theres changing my mind possible now, hehe) tell me.

Thanks in advance for all help, I'll listen to you guys advice. Deffinitly seem to know what you're talking about.

Jamey
 
I'll say this- plan B is a hell of a lot better than plan A. Keep working. I spec'd gear for 8 months before I plunked down a bunch of money, and I've never regretted it.-Richie
 
I realized I'd be spending so much more in the long run if I bought the sound card setup. If I wanted the same sound as the firewire interface, I'd end up spending lots more.

Anyways, I guess I'll wait about 1 more week of research and sleeping on it, then I'll make the big buy! I'll be sure to tell you guys how it is for me!

Thanks again, I'll try and post some tracks eventually if I get there :P

Jamey
 
Yeah, I think the Presonus Firepod is a good choice for you. You might want to research/put a bit more thought into your mic and monitor suggestions. Browse the site for specific info.
 
heres what i would do.

record your whole band doing a song with the mics you have going into the mixer and then into your current sound card.

then go back and re-record everything individually along with your rythm track so you can really tweak the sound and get some decent mixes..
in a long long time you will get good at this and be making some real decent sounds.

THEN
when you know all about what you are doing and getting into..
then and only then
go plunk 1600 dollars down on a bunch of fancy gear :)
trust me.. become an engineer first.. then spend money on engineering gear. you will buy more wisely and be a lot more satisfied in the long run if you do it this way.

as you get more experienced your opinions on what gear you need will be a lot more specific and educated. in this business the old "if you have to ask you probably don't need it" phrase really truly does apply.

it is tempting to have the money and buy the stuff.. i've been there.. i wish i had the first fifteen hundred i spent on gear back.
 
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