Complete Newbie; Give me your best!

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Slark238

New member
I have been directed here by friends at the Acoustic Guitar Forum. Got some good advice over there, including learning that this is where I need to pose my questions. Here's my situation:

1) I want to record myself singing and playing both electric and acoustic guitar, and perhaps a MIDI keyboard. No drums. Perhaps some overtracking of other voices.

2) I have a Fender twin reverb amp, two old "stereo" Rickenbacker's, a Taylor 955cs and some pure acoustics. I will need to get a keyboard, mics, and everything that is involved with mixing, effects, recording and editing.

3) I am computer literate, and own several laptops. I could easily be talked into a Mac, however.

4) I am a child of the 60s. My band cut a studio demo in 1966. Things are different now. Probably three whole generations of "gear" have passed me by. The only effect I know about is the Gibson Fuzz Box. I never learned how to read music, and yes I still have vinyl.

5) OK, so where do I begin? I don't want to get into $10,000 microphones, and I don't want 24 tracks if I don't need them, but otherwise assume no budget constraints.

Bring it on. I sense we will all get a kick out of this!

David
 
Slark238 said:
I have been directed here by friends at the Acoustic Guitar Forum. Got some good advice over there, including learning that this is where I need to pose my questions. Here's my situation:

1) I want to record myself singing and playing both electric and acoustic guitar, and perhaps a MIDI keyboard. No drums. Perhaps some overtracking of other voices.

2) I have a Fender twin reverb amp, two old "stereo" Rickenbacker's, a Taylor 955cs and some pure acoustics. I will need to get a keyboard, mics, and everything that is involved with mixing, effects, recording and editing.

3) I am computer literate, and own several laptops. I could easily be talked into a Mac, however.

4) I am a child of the 60s. My band cut a studio demo in 1966. Things are different now. Probably three whole generations of "gear" have passed me by. The only effect I know about is the Gibson Fuzz Box. I never learned how to read music, and yes I still have vinyl.

5) OK, so where do I begin? I don't want to get into $10,000 microphones, and I don't want 24 tracks if I don't need them, but otherwise assume no budget constraints.

Bring it on. I sense we will all get a kick out of this!

David
Click to expand...

David,
Sheesh, you cut a studio demo the year I was born! things have definitely changed since then.

There's so much information to give, and some of it may not appy, so I don't want to waste too much time and prefer to get right to the heart of it, but I need a few answers from you before I can help, so:
1). How many tracks do you think you will want to record simultaneously? I gather two max?

2). How familiar are you with recording software? What are the specs on your computer (s).

Just as an aside, how open are you to buying a stand-alone multitrack? Either digital or analog?

Let's start there and see what happens...

Rokket
 
This will be fun to see how it turns out.

Do you still have the demo anywhere? Love to hear some of it.

Good luck.
Ed
 
Rokket said:
David,
Sheesh, you cut a studio demo the year I was born! things have definitely changed since then.

There's so much information to give, and some of it may not appy, so I don't want to waste too much time and prefer to get right to the heart of it, but I need a few answers from you before I can help, so:
1). How many tracks do you think you will want to record simultaneously? I gather two max?

2). How familiar are you with recording software? What are the specs on your computer (s).

Just as an aside, how open are you to buying a stand-alone multitrack? Either digital or analog?

Let's start there and see what happens...

Rokket
Click to expand...

Rokket,

1) I think two max
2) I am not familiar with recording software at all, but I am not afraid of it either (bold to say). My computers are P4 and P5 with 256k of Ram and 20+g Harddrives. But don't let that be a constraint. I am willing to upgrade the computer to what's needed.
3) I am open to buying a stand-alone, either digital or analog.

What I really want is the best quality setup for my needs, without going bezerk. To use an analogy, I'm willing to go with a Mercedes, but I think a Ferrari would be overkill.

Thanks in advance for your help!

David
 
Slark238 said:
Rokket,

1) I think two max
2) I am not familiar with recording software at all, but I am not afraid of it either (bold to say). My computers are P4 and P5 with 256k of Ram and 20+g Harddrives. But don't let that be a constraint. I am willing to upgrade the computer to what's needed.
3) I am open to buying a stand-alone, either digital or analog.

What I really want is the best quality setup for my needs, without going bezerk. To use an analogy, I'm willing to go with a Mercedes, but I think a Ferrari would be overkill.

Thanks in advance for your help!

David
Click to expand...

OK, recording only 2 max gives you a lot of options as far as soundcard interfaces. Again, check out MAudio on google and see what they have to offer. I am more inclined to steer people toward SIAB's (studio in a box), or multitrack recorders for learning on. Not having done any recording in my lifetime, you will probably want something to learn on before you commit to the pc route, which can be a bear to learn and use effectively. I am of a state of mind that you should learn to drive the volvo before you jump in the Ferrari, to steal your analogy.

On that note, there are two route to go, as stated before.

Digital, there are 4, 8, 16 and 32 track machines available, but they can get pricey the more tracks and the more bells and whistles you attach.
Base line, there is Zoom, which makes a 4 track recorder that has a built in drum machine and it's fairly easy to use.
Tascam makes some great machines, and they cover all the bases above, but tend to be pricey (you get what you pay for, quality-wise).
Fostex also makes comparable digital machines. I would recommend that you search their websites for more information about what each one will do. There just isn't enough time for me to get into each one individually. It's much better for you to look and decide, because you and no one else knows your needs.
On the other side is analog, which records to cassette tapes. Pro's: the analog sound, the ability to run a hot signal without clipping, ease of use.
The cons: tape hiss and other problems associated with the medium (write through, the aversion to heat and magnetic devices, et al). And signal quality loss on transferring from tape to tape that you don't get with a digital machine.
Digital Pros: ease in use (some machines. Some of them have a HUGE learning curve), readily available recording medium (some of them have built in harddrives) and no noticeable signal loss on transferring mediums.
Cons: don't have that analog "warmth", and the afforementioned learning curve in some models.

Either way you go, it's better to get your feet wet using a multitracker. Another great advantage is portability. You can take them anywhere, and you are not tied to your pc...

I will let others with more experience clue you in on pc recording. My own method is to record on the Fostex MR-8, and transfer the tracks as 16-bit 44.1khz mono wave files to recording software to mix my tracks. I play all the instruments, one at a time (like I could do more???), and mix normally around 20 tracks via the software.

As far as recording software, there is so much of that available that it deserves it's own thread. There are arguments all over this board about it, so I don't want to touch it. If you feel that you want to dabble with it, again I will let others give you recommendations. They are all as similar as they are different, the X factor being price and user-friendliness.

That's it, I will let you digest this and try to answer your questions as they come up to the best of my ability. I will not bs you, and I will let someone else take the reins if I can't give you an honest, thruthful answer.
Welcome to the board, and to the world of home recording!
 
Slark, I have a Boss BR532 digital 4 track, and works well for what it is. Decent sounds, and has a built in drum machine, and some amp settings for guitar, and some vocal stuff. I would say if you could spend more money though, youd be happier with something that doesn't use flash memory, as that is a limiting factor on mine. Something with a hard drive would be a better choice.

Just something I learned from buying cheap to see if I would like to do this, and now would like a better setup. I will upgrade when I feel my music is getting better.
Ed
 
I'm a newby too..I started driving trucks in 1966

I started driving Mac's in 2005...GarageBand to be precise...

It's simple..it's cheap...It's good...
 
Many thanks to all. There is clearly so much I have to learn about just the basics, let alone trying to engineer a recording.

There are many solid options to consider. I am not trying to record demos (yet). I like the idea of expandability for the future. THis somewhat takes me in the direction of a G5 + MBox, but there are many negative comments about the software (Pro tools). Most of the negativity is above my head, and I wonder if its somewhat like hearing "I'm not terribly impressed with the geometry of this wine, it should have more overtones of oak and chocolate..." from a wine critic.

If I want to go with the MBox, I assume there are multiple ways to get a MIDI keyboard into the fray...

Let me hear your feedback.
 
Slark238 said:
I don't want 24 tracks if I don't need them.
Click to expand...

Just a word to the wise:

Not only will you one day (probably very soon if you get addicted to recording) want 24 tracks, but you will find out before then that you *NEED* 24 tracks.

24 tracks is nothing these days.

Heck, I had to bump up the ProTools rig to 64 voices the other day for my current project because it is at 96khz. I have 24 tracks of GUITAR ALONE! (Due to 3 mics per take that I didn't feel like summing at the mixer.) For drums I only have 8 tracks, but all the aux busses going on for TDM's, submixes and audio trickery I must have 30 tracks dedicated to the drums!

Granted, you can do a lot of mix downs to save on track count, but that gets annoying after awhile.

However, if you record and mix into a well-spec'd computer you should easily be able to get at least 48 tracks with something like Cubase.
 
Slark238 said:
There are many solid options to consider. I am not trying to record demos (yet). I like the idea of expandability for the future. THis somewhat takes me in the direction of a G5 + MBox, but there are many negative comments about the software (Pro tools). Most of the negativity is above my head, and I wonder if its somewhat like hearing "I'm not terribly impressed with the geometry of this wine, it should have more overtones of oak and chocolate..." from a wine critic.
Click to expand...
It's also a lot about how easy things are to use. you may find that you think the software is complicated, so don't buy software until you have tried it out.

Mackies Tracktion seem easy to use.
 
Ideal set up for you would be:

Mac G5 dual processor.
Logic Audio 7.
Pro Tools.
Fatar or M-Audio USB or Midi keyboard.
Small mixing desk (Soundtracs, Behringer etc).
Neumann M149 mic (expensive but lovely on guitar and vocals).
Pair of Genelec 1030 active monitors with sub.
Focusrite Red 3 compressor.

This set up is a Merc and not a Ferrari. You'll get amazing results from it as Logic has so many plug ins as standard these days that you'll not need any hardware modules at all. Fairly expensive but I'm guessing you are prepared to pay for quality, but most of all great fun to drive!
 
Commander said:
Ideal set up for you would be:

Mac G5 dual processor.
Logic Audio 7.
Pro Tools.
Fatar or M-Audio USB or Midi keyboard.
Small mixing desk (Soundtracs, Behringer etc).
Neumann M149 mic (expensive but lovely on guitar and vocals).
Pair of Genelec 1030 active monitors with sub.
Focusrite Red 3 compressor.

This set up is a Merc and not a Ferrari. You'll get amazing results from it as Logic has so many plug ins as standard these days that you'll not need any hardware modules at all. Fairly expensive but I'm guessing you are prepared to pay for quality, but most of all great fun to drive!
Click to expand...
Just pricing this out at retail, it is comparable to a new Mercedes! (almost)

Not knowing what each of the software packs do, why both Logic Audio 7 and Pro Tools?

And, I find it very interesting that much of what I thought hardware would have to do, now software is doing.

David
 
Slark238 said:
Not knowing what each of the software packs do, why both Logic Audio 7 and Pro Tools?
Click to expand...

The Pro Tools I/O interfaces, the digital 192 in prticular, have a phenomenally clean sound compared to other units. You can use Logic as a front end with Pro Tools sitting in the background and never touch PT as a programme whilst getting all the benefits of the I/O converters. It will give you 16 ins and 16 outs per I/O unit as well. You could use an M-Box or similar with Logic and not get Pro Tools but then you are limited to 2 ins and 2 outs. Also, although the M-Box is great it really doesn't compare soundwise to a Pro Tools I/O.

Slark238 said:
And, I find it very interesting that much of what I thought hardware would have to do, now software is doing.
Click to expand...

This is the remarkable thing. If you have a powerful enough Mac the options are almost limitless these days. Pretty much the only hardware you need is a Midi keyboard to play the performance into the sequencer, a small desk for your mic inputs (don't even need that with an M-Box), a good mic and a pair of speakers!

I know it's expensive but this is comparable to a high end studio set up and will be compatible with most recording studios in the World. You can also achieve amazing results with it. Logic is, as its name suggests, logical. Very quick to get to grips with and lovely to work with.

Very exciting - good luck! ... :D
 
OK, if I go the PC route, then your suggestion is to have a set up something like this:

A decent MIDI keyboard (Suggestion?)
A couple of high-end mics on the acoustic guitar, and another If I want to sing at the same time
Something to take in the mic inputs (suggestions here?)
A Pro Tools digital 192 I/O
A Focusrite red 3 compressor (will this serve as the mic pre?)
Logic Audio 7 S/W (I assume you like this much more than pro tools...)
A high-end Mac
Some speakers (I have a pair of old, really old, AR 3a speakers.Will these work?)
Some headphones
The right Cables

and a spare $10grand :o

Is that it?

Cheers,

David
 
Pretty much. Get a big fast Mac though. I think I am right in saying that the Pro Tools 192 won't work without the Pro Tools software and I don't think you can just use one without the other. As for mic pre amp I would suggest a small 16 channel desk, something like a Mackie. Alternatively you could just use an M-Box and do all that stuff within the computer itself. Downside is that it only has two ins and two outs and you can only record two tracks at once.

I use a Neumann M-149 mic for everything. Sounds lovely on guitars, both acoustic and electric, and vocals. I've used it on drums, sax, trumpet, vocals, guitar (acoustic and cabinet miking), accordion, clarinet, violin and vola and had superb results. Midi keyboard wise we have the Fatar and the M-Audio here in the UK. Not sure if you get those in the USA so you would have to check.

Good monitoring on a set up like this is fairly crucial. I use Genelecs with subs (I have both the 1030s and the 1032s) and as they are powered it is one less thing to think about, being controlled by the master volume on the desk.

You can check out my studio here if you like as I use most of the gear I have been blathering on about!

Hope this helps!
 
Slark238 said:
Rokket,

1) I think two max
2) I am not familiar with recording software at all, but I am not afraid of it either (bold to say). My computers are P4 and P5 with 256k of Ram and 20+g Harddrives. But don't let that be a constraint. I am willing to upgrade the computer to what's needed.
3) I am open to buying a stand-alone, either digital or analog.

What I really want is the best quality setup for my needs, without going bezerk. To use an analogy, I'm willing to go with a Mercedes, but I think a Ferrari would be overkill.

Thanks in advance for your help!

David
Click to expand...

1. audiophile 192. 2 analog inputs (and midi and spdif). works excellently. you'll need a preamp too. if you'll need more later, bridge that when it comes.

2. a P4/P5 is plenty powerful. double your ram and get a huge hard drive.

3. don't get a mac. you have a computer that's perfectly capable. on the other hand, a standalone is nice. press record and done. no fiddling.

4. cakewalk's sonar 4 is very easy to use, and an awesome program. frankly the best program i've used in terms of overall goodness. the PC choices are all nice and easy to use. sonic foundry 5 and steinberg wavelab are nice programs too.

5. oh, no one's mentioned mic pre's. you should look at the market for mic pre's. also know that some sound cards have built-in mic pre's (but in some ways this gives u less control over your pre-s). i use an old symetrix sx202, cheap and clean. nowadays there's lotsa options.

seed
 
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