Co-writing songs, I need help.

M

mrhotapples

New member
My overall, generalized question is "How do you work within a band when other people have opinions on the direction of a song/arrangement and tone of instruments/etc?"

The other guitarist in my band hardly writes anything, lyrically or musically, but constantly forces his opinion on things and puts down my musicianship and songwriting, backing his opinions up with phrases like "That band would do this, we shouldn't copy them" or "we're not that band" or "that band would do this so we should do it" or "I listen to that band and they do it" or "I go to shows and that's how all the other bands do it, we should too" or "i thought we were a ska band" or some other bit that is pretty much saying "my personal experience tells me that we should do this.

but this is never very specific and is always a reaction to an idea I've already thought out and conceptualized on more than just a level of opinion. I've written PLENTY of stuff I don't like listening to but I can identify as good music, because I write music foremost for other people to listen to!!!


ARHWH.

There are songs that I've written where instead of writing a complimentary part to the music (ie playing melody over chords I intend to sing over), he just plays what I've written yet refuses to play parts I write specifically FOR him to play! HOW DOES THAT MAKE SENSE? Or he'll insist that something (whether it's my song or someone else in the band) needs a part added or needs to somehow change but doesn't write the part or make the change, and then BITCHES ABOUT IT.

The extent of his opinions is criticism that if we do this thing, people will hate it or that it's "stupid". It's like he's TRYING to have an opinion but it's just a way to make his voice heard.

I am a very proficient guitarist, vocalist and songwriter. I've written six movement orchestral pieces in Fruity Loops with VSTIs, I took music theory in high school for two years and constantly study, but I'm also a scene kid and I like to go to shows and dance and fuck shit up and I can not in any way shape or form be categorized as a closed-minded person. I have natural sensibility and ears when it comes to this whole music thing. I'm more qualified to be a producer than a member of a band.

What do I do to fix this besides quitting the band or kicking him out? The times he DOES actually do something constructive are good, and they go hand in hand in making us who we are, but...JEEEEZ.
 
A lot of it will depend on your age, testosterone levels, relative life experience, current employment but ultimately it'll depend on your charisma. Can you gently persuade people to come along for the ride as co-drivers, willing passengers or the unhappy kids in the back seat, "are we there yet?".
Sit him down & write/arrange together.
MOST people in a creative unit don't like having their parts handed to them - it can be very demeaning.
You've looked at what he does to annoy you. you've looked at what you do to get the band to do the things you want done. Perhaps it's time you should get his/their perspective.
I've been on both sides of the coin -
a) I didn't like being told, I wasn't on a salary & I'd joined a group not someone's backing band. I stood my ground but eventually left as there was no change in demeanour or behaviour.
b) I has written the music and the lyric and so wanted a say in the melody. I wasn't doing the singing and liked the singer's work. I allowed the singer to do her own thing and recorded the results. We then sat down with the playback and discussed adjusments mutually. The end result was pretty good.

Often a band isn't a democracy & that can rankle those disempowered. If you want a backing band sack the fellow & start paying the others better. If you want a collaboration in bringing your creations to life involve the others, actively seek their input in arrangements if not writing and remember: it's supposed to be fun!
Oh, take in the germ of an idea and ask them to jam with you to develop it. have more indeas in your mind so you can nudge the jam if nothing comes up but go along with ideas that work & give credit.

Watch the beatles movie (Let It Be?) and take note of how George felt/responded/played when he was treated as a journeyman.
 
It's not that I want a backing band...Contrary to that, all of our songs are collaborative efforts. I don't want to have to write guitar parts for him. I don't write our drummer or bassist's parts!

Everybody's good at something. I'm good at offering emotional, visual, logical and oftentimes completely abstract input on things and directing things. I am a leader. I usually have no trouble working with people because all I really feel like doing is building the skeleton and placing the hairs, I like to leave all the organs and even the skin to other people if they're willing to provide them.

When we all sing, we all write music, even though it's mostly me and the bassist, and we all want a hand in production and arrangement, shouldn't we all try to think like-minded rather than conflicting?

That's really the problem, it's like he comes up with ideas he insist we use even though they conflict with the rest of what's going on harmonically (he's quite fond of trying to use major seconds in places where they don't sound good at all, mostly because he doesn't understand harmony at all but you'd figure he'd hear the dissonance), rhythmically, and especially EMOTIONALLY.

You're not gonna wanna play funk chords over something about ripping someone's face off and eating it, are you? Maybe to be funny, but everything else would have to be funny.
 
I think you have two seperate issues - one is perhaps the co-writing issue, but the other is the overall interaction of your band.

Co-writing can be very difficult, writers can get emotionally attached to their creations which makes a critique or even a different musical approach to the material hard to accept. As rayc suggests, in a band situation, often musicians want/need the ability to bring their own thing to the music - and handing someone a part to play (vs. asking them to create a part), can create friction.

However, in your case, it sounds like this person brings a rather consistant negative vibe to the band......that can gradually destroy the band.

Do other people in the band comment on this guy's negative input? You indicate you and the bass player write most of the material - does the bass player also get negative input from this guy? Hopefully, you are not the only person in the band hwho thinks this guy is a problem.

rayc correctly points out that there are different ways to approach different people - sometimes you can get them to buy into your ideas.....and sometimes you can't. If you think the positive contributions of this guy are worth the effort - perhaps you should sit down with him and calmly and nicely explain that his negativity hurts the band in whatever ways you think.

Naturally, it would be ideal to make sure that you would have the backing of the rest of the band. However, if the rest of the band does not think this guy is the same problem you think he is - then you have to decide if this is the right musical situation for you.

I will share one piece of insight - and this comes from someone who has been a member of about 40 bands and a sideman/sub for at least 40 other bands. There are many musicians who have large egos, who have their own agenda or who are simply assholes. These people often think that their talent justifies their actions - and rarely, do they choose to change.

I have seen the type of person you have described tear bands apart - often causing other musicians to leave. I've seen bands try to keep the asshole (often because he/she has a lot of talent) even if it means losing other members who while not as talented were certainly better "team players".

I've learned after 40 years of gigging (and most of the long term professionals I know would agree) - it is often better to have bands members with a little less raw talent but with decent attitudes - than people with huge talent - who also have huge egos.

In any case - good luck!
 
A band is like a gravity well, and band members are the planetoids sucked into it by virtue of their creativity; i.e. a band is one of the natural places for creative people to congregate.

But not everyone's creativity manifests in the same way, and nor does it necessarily push in the same direction or complement other's. You should expect to have to deal with some difficulties when you couple this with the egos involved (including your own, of course).

Here are some thoughts: everyone has his or her own motivations for participating in a band. Everyone's motives are as valid as everyone else's. You might not like, say, someone using the band as a stepping stone to somewhere else, but they are entitled to that motivation. Likewise, creativity pops up in different ways. Some people are great at creating from nothing. Others aren't so good at that, but are really good at extending and building on an idea, but they need someone else to come up with that first idea.

RayC presents sound advice, and I would sum it up as: treat the person as the solution, not the problem. For example: if he says that something is needed, you could ask something like: "cool, what do you reckon it needs? Is this what you had in mind?" With this approach he becomes the co-owner of the change. You mention that "it's just a way to make his voice heard". I think that as a member of a band he needs a way of making his voice heard. This will become destructive if he is not given a legitimate means of contributing. Is he being shut out everywhere else?

I have been in bands where there are strong egos, and musical ideas don't always match. It's not always a happy mix, but it can work if one or the other is prepared to take a backseat.

But the one thing that has helped a lot is to see whether you can at least get agreement on the band's musical direction and aspirations. If you are agreed on a common goal, and work towards it, it doesn't matter so much how you reach it: you still get to Sydney, whether you take the Princess Highway or the Hume Highway.

But I have to say . . . I love major seconds!
 
Ah, now you've explained more about how you opperate as a band I have more understanding.
Yep, sounds like he's aggrieved and angry. It'd be hard to ask the other fellas too - there's the possibility of the "behind his back' thing that'd develop.
Sounds like a band meeting's needed where you can air the laundry.
the last similarly contrary fellow I worked with of this chip on shoulder type caused the band to dwindle from a quintet to a duo - he was the last to go before the duo remained. Nice bloke, good drummer but...
You'll need to talk it out. Good luck!
 
*sigh*

Yeah, so you understand why I end up trying to compose on a computer, instead of playing in a band? LMAO...

I always DID wonder what drove some men to be a "one guy in a studio" kind of thing instead of finding plumbers to do the plumbing... LMAO... after trying to work with local talent on composing and songwriting, my best efforts have ultimately come alone on a computer, LMAO

maybe you should think about producing... that way youre already in charge from the get go, and they should be amazed at how you can arrange stuff for them and write music. H3ll, maybe thats where producers COME from, hee hee.

I know I have legendary patience, and i wanted to strangle a few young musicians a few times, LMAO
 
Thanks for the discussion you guys, it's giving me more to think about as to what I want to actually say when the time comes.

We've had problems with this guy the entire time we've been a band. We've talked stuff out but as such, nothing seems to be fixed, it only crops up in different forms.

I think that the biggest problem underlying everything is that he can't accept responsibility for things, he's very quick to blame problems on other people. He's got a very self-victimizing attitude towards everything. A good example would be that some months ago, I was having a terrible time writing anything and his excuse to not even try to write something or contribute anything was that "If noone else is doing it why should I?" it's like he doesn't understand that a negative attitude that everyone can go fuck themselves isn't productive.

It's very frustrating to be talked down to about how lazy you are when you've written 3/4 of the band's music and lyrics.

We're all good at different things (this guy could be a professional comic book artist, he's really really good) but it's like all he wants to do half the time is pick out reasons why we all suck. He's negative about practically everything.

It all ends up being the most bothersome in the actual music place. It's not like I don't want to work with other people, but when they don't want to work with me...The drummer and bassist and I go into "think like the person who presented the original idea" mode when we write and we hardly have disagreements unless our drummer simply has no idea what the hell to play to a part.
 
let me try to be a devils advocate here... i once had trouble with a drummer that when i brought parts in for everyone to play they had no problem with it except for him... i would hear things like "now he's trying to tell ME how to play"... and eventually i heard "who do you think you are?" well the answer was simply... "i'm the fucking composer!" after that we worked for 2 yrs made good money played great clubs all over the mid-west but.... i never tried to get my tunes through to them... it was just a gig...a good one albeit... and my creative efforts went to other projects... so i learned to separate the two areas...

just another possibility...
 
i don't write with people who arent' easy to write with. in your case i would write the song myself and once finished i would present it to the band. if they didn't like it i'd say ok we won't play that one. and move on to the next song. i don't like my artistic integrity to be fucked with so i'd do it like that.
 
Can I ask a quick question?

Is your guy who is making the problems putting in production idea's or is he writing?

The two are have a fine dividing line but if you are writing the majority of the songs (thats top line and backing, you got to remember top line gets 50% publishing and backing would be split between whoever writes the backing) I would not take it so personal and just keep on thinking when a big deal does come you own the majority of the songs, the money is on publishing anyway.

With regards to prouction ideas he offers, take on board what he has to say and then choose the best path for your songs, they are only going to be given to a producer when you get a deal, and trust me your given/chosen producer will change your songs beyond all recognosion anyway.

So, in short to you and your guy, just chill out and make music :)
 
A lot of it is chemistry.

It's like a relationship between two people. Sometimes they just click, and sometimes they don't.


Look at Glen Frey of the Eagles. My personal opinion is that his solo work is horrible. I mean, seriously, Smuggler's Blues? That song, to me, is a joke. I can write just as poor of a song, but it won't get published because I am not a former member of the Eagles.

But Glen Frey is incredible as a piece of the Eagles. It's like he's not even the same guy. He and Henley made incredible songs together.

Likewise, I don't like Henley's solo work either. I think it's contrived and boring (just my worthless opinion). Boys of Summer is about all I can kind of listen to, and usually I'll turn that off if given the chance.

Chemistry.
 
Chemistry i agree. I have been in and out of bands for a long time and one band i was in stuff just came like water but ended just because of life taking everyone in their own path. And if i could i'd say guys.. lets get back at 'er i would. And I'm pretty sure they'd all do the same except for two of the guys but whatever.

But. The last band i was in left such a sour taste in my mouth due to egos and addictions that i said eff this thats enough if i make music from this point forward its my own.

Too much was expected from me and my experience, but everything was shot down because it didn't sound exactly like xBANDx. Screw that.

I feel for you. Good luck. stay determined.
 
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Me and my best friend have been writing songs seperatly since junior high. Just recently at the age of the 18 and 19 we started to collaborate together and form a band with our two other best friends even allowing one of our friends to move to the drums so we could have a drummer. Its been hard and no matter what there are going to be arguments within a band its just what happens when you try to put four diffrerent opinions together.

Even though we have all been friends for years we still clash on ideas. Me and my bbest friend are the main songwriters of the band but we allow everyone to add anything they please as long as the whole band likes it. We do try to run it like a democracy even though me and my friend are basicly the final dictators.

You just have to find a way to collaborate that works with you. If your guitarist doesnt write songs but just critizes yours ask him to write something and then you add over his material instead. Make sure that your musical taste are on the same level so when you like something alot he does as well or else it really doesnt work. Your other members have to faith and respect to what you write or else its not going to work if they think your writing bad songs.

Although this situation rarely happens with my band becase for the most part we all like every song and we make sure of that or else its not going to be fun playing and it will show in the performance.

I hope maybe I helped but probably not.
 
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