Cassette mixdown for vinyl mastering

[Badmongo88]

Hei, i am going to start recording on a cassette based portastudio and was wondering if
it is possible to use a cassette as the audio source for cutting vinyl lacquer? Because i want to record on cassette but release on vinyl without digitizing it at any point. obviously this will be along time coming but what steps should i take when recording mixing down and such to optimise it for vinyl release?

I know that Nebraska - bruce springsteen was done this way. i have read it was difficult to get it on to the vinyl lacquer and so wonder if it is still possible of getting it done?

I sort of assume it is possible. and then i want it to be as good as it can get on a low budget?

I have been trying to find info online but not so much is written about it.
Any help is appreciated

Thank you

 

[jpmorris]

It was probably transferred to 1/4" first. If you're looking to do a completely analogue release, that's the more likely scenario: 1/4" tape, 2-track stereo, 15ips no NR.
However, bear in mind that a lot of cutting setups use a digital delay in the signal chain.
To do it all-analogue you need someone with a specially-modified deck with two playback heads and these are fairly rare. (And that trick is flat-out impossible with a cassette source, by the way)

 

[Badmongo88]

so if i a send a cassette to a mastering facility would they transfer the cassette to 1/4" (that's like high quality reel to reel tape right?) digital delay is ok iguess, just don't want the actual audio to be converted to digital and then back to analog again. that was what i was thinking anyway. but is that difficult to do? do most mastering studios offer this service? or would i be looking for something that is very hard to find?

 

[jpmorris]

so if i a send a cassette to a mastering facility would they transfer the cassette to 1/4" (that's like high quality reel to reel tape right?)

Doubtful. Fact is, I'm not sure they'll have a cassette deck to hand. I've yet to see a cutting house that even lists a cassette machine, and even giving them a 1/4" tape tends to narrow your choices down a lot. Most of them want CD, DAT or 24/96 WAV files.

digital delay is ok iguess, just don't want the actual audio to be converted to digital and then back to analog again.

That's exactly what the digital delay will do.

that was what i was thinking anyway. but is that difficult to do? do most mastering studios offer this service? or would i be looking for something that is very hard to find?

It looks it. Certainly in the UK, it's 1/4" tape or digital. And a lot of them are digital or nothing.

 

[Badmongo88]

Ok, Thank you very much

 

[pdmillar]

It isn't actually required to have a preview-head tape machine or delayed input to a cutting system, it just allows the lathe to pack the grooves tighter (i.e. adjacent revolutions of groove are very close together when the program is quiet, spread far apart when it is loud, in order to either put a longer program on a side, achieve a better overall recording level, or minimize inner-groove distortion by keeping the end of the program away from the center of the disc). This is called variable pitch. Fixed pitch cuts can still be made with one input (most records earlier than the 70s, a lot of 12" singles, and direct to disc recordings of course)

Most records made since the 80s used a digital delay instead of a preview-head tape machine - because it's a lot easier to set up - so the actual audio that was cut to disc had gone from analog to digital and back to analog again (hopefully at a better resolution than 44.1K, but usually not)

I had my LP cut directly from tape, without digital delay by Aardvark Mastering... they charge a lot less than anyone else does for the same service but he does not have a preview-head machine, so all cuts done that way would have to be fixed-pitch. Wouldn't be good if you were trying to cram a lot of music on a side. I thought the results sounded extremely good but the record probably would have been louder if it had been cut with a preview-head deck and a Neumann lathe.

You should probably locate a decent 2-track 15ips machine to mix down to, rather than mixing down to another cassette... in order for them to be able to cut a lacquer direct from the reel-to-reel, the songs have to be spliced together in the exact order and timing they appear on the lacquer. In other words the lathe can't stop once it has started cutting a side.

You'll also need to line up the 2-track's azimuth, record and repro electronics with a standard tape (i.e. MRL) and include alignment tones (at least 1K and 10KHz) on the head or tail of the master, or the mastering facility won't be able to match their machine to your tape, and the lacquer transfer will sound worse.

(Disclaimer: I don't cut records, it's just the most fascinating thing in the world)

 

[Hammerstone]

This is great information! I'm in Colorado, so I've considered using Aardvark myself. I've also tried to get a resource page together with as much information as possible for people looking to press a vinyl record. Would you mind sharing your experiences?
https://homerecording.com/bbs/general-discussions/analog-only/record-pressing-resource-page-360531/

It isn't actually required to have a preview-head tape machine or delayed input to a cutting system, it just allows the lathe to pack the grooves tighter (i.e. adjacent revolutions of groove are very close together when the program is quiet, spread far apart when it is loud, in order to either put a longer program on a side, achieve a better overall recording level, or minimize inner-groove distortion by keeping the end of the program away from the center of the disc). This is called variable pitch. Fixed pitch cuts can still be made with one input (most records earlier than the 70s, a lot of 12" singles, and direct to disc recordings of course)

Most records made since the 80s used a digital delay instead of a preview-head tape machine - because it's a lot easier to set up - so the actual audio that was cut to disc had gone from analog to digital and back to analog again (hopefully at a better resolution than 44.1K, but usually not)

I had my LP cut directly from tape, without digital delay by Aardvark Mastering... they charge a lot less than anyone else does for the same service but he does not have a preview-head machine, so all cuts done that way would have to be fixed-pitch. Wouldn't be good if you were trying to cram a lot of music on a side. I thought the results sounded extremely good but the record probably would have been louder if it had been cut with a preview-head deck and a Neumann lathe.

You should probably locate a decent 2-track 15ips machine to mix down to, rather than mixing down to another cassette... in order for them to be able to cut a lacquer direct from the reel-to-reel, the songs have to be spliced together in the exact order and timing they appear on the lacquer. In other words the lathe can't stop once it has started cutting a side.

You'll also need to line up the 2-track's azimuth, record and repro electronics with a standard tape (i.e. MRL) and include alignment tones (at least 1K and 10KHz) on the head or tail of the master, or the mastering facility won't be able to match their machine to your tape, and the lacquer transfer will sound worse.

(Disclaimer: I don't cut records, it's just the most fascinating thing in the world)

 

[Badmongo88]

It isn't actually required to have a preview-head tape machine or delayed input to a cutting system, it just allows the lathe to pack the grooves tighter (i.e. adjacent revolutions of groove are very close together when the program is quiet, spread far apart when it is loud, in order to either put a longer program on a side, achieve a better overall recording level, or minimize inner-groove distortion by keeping the end of the program away from the center of the disc). This is called variable pitch. Fixed pitch cuts can still be made with one input (most records earlier than the 70s, a lot of 12" singles, and direct to disc recordings of course)

so what does that mean? does that mean that the over all volume of my record will be lower in volume and the surface noise more audible? and that i should go for less time on each side?

I had my LP cut directly from tape, without digital delay by Aardvark Mastering... they charge a lot less than anyone else does for the same service but he does not have a preview-head machine, so all cuts done that way would have to be fixed-pitch. Wouldn't be good if you were trying to cram a lot of music on a side. I thought the results sounded extremely good but the record probably would have been louder if it had been cut with a preview-head deck and a Neumann lathe.

What does fixed pitch mean and how is that achieved?

You should probably locate a decent 2-track 15ips machine to mix down to, rather than mixing down to another cassette... in order for them to be able to cut a lacquer direct from the reel-to-reel, the songs have to be spliced together in the exact order and timing they appear on the lacquer. In other words the lathe can't stop once it has started cutting a side.

Ok. so a 2 track reel to reel machine with 15ips to use for mixdown? is it then possible to say if i record one song per cassette, and i dont do the mixdown my self but send it as is and get the mastering engineer to do the mixdown from cassette to reel 2 reel? and ask them to do the splicing and fix the order of the songs and the timing?

You'll also need to line up the 2-track's azimuth, record and repro electronics with a standard tape (i.e. MRL) and include alignment tones (at least 1K and 10KHz) on the head or tail of the master, or the mastering facility won't be able to match their machine to your tape, and the lacquer transfer will sound worse.

(Disclaimer: I don't cut records, it's just the most fascinating thing in the world)

what is repro electronics? and what are alignment tones?

And thank you very much for this info been most helpful

 

[jpmorris]

It isn't actually required to have a preview-head tape machine or delayed input to a cutting system, it just allows the lathe to pack the grooves tighter (i.e. adjacent revolutions of groove are very close together when the program is quiet, spread far apart when it is loud, in order to either put a longer program on a side, achieve a better overall recording level, or minimize inner-groove distortion by keeping the end of the program away from the center of the disc). This is called variable pitch. Fixed pitch cuts can still be made with one input (most records earlier than the 70s, a lot of 12" singles, and direct to disc recordings of course)

Oh, that is interesting. Incidentally, I liked the little messages on the runoff. That was a nice touch.

so what does that mean? does that mean that the over all volume of my record will be lower in volume and the surface noise more audible? and that i should go for less time on each side?

Yes. It's a balance between quality and time. The recommended maximum for a 12" LP is about 19 minutes per side. If you go over that, the volume has to be dropped to compensate, and yes, the recorded level will be closer to the background noise. Lots of bass also requires wider grooves (or larger gaps between them or something) which takes up more space.

There have been a lot of records over the 19 minute mark - 'Momentary Lapse of Reason' for instance, was about 25-26 minutes per side, or 'Pawn Hearts', where side 2 was a single, 24-minute long track. I assumed that kind of length was typical and made my albums about 24-25 minutes/side, then ran into trouble when I decided to get one of them pressed and no-one would touch it at that length.

What does fixed pitch mean and how is that achieved?

I think that's where the cutting head steps inwards at exactly the same rate, so each part of the groove has exactly the same width and spacing. Whereas variable-pitch recording would vary the speed at which the cutting head travels towards the centre, making the spacing between the parts of the groove narrower where the volume is lower, and wider where it's louder or has more bass. That would allow it to pack more recording time into the vinyl by allocating space dynamically.

Ok. so a 2 track reel to reel machine with 15ips to use for mixdown? is it then possible to say if i record one song per cassette, and i dont do the mixdown my self but send it as is and get the mastering engineer to do the mixdown from cassette to reel 2 reel? and ask them to do the splicing and fix the order of the songs and the timing?

You'd have to ask. AFAIK most cutting houses will charge extra for having to fiddle about with it like that.

what is repro electronics? and what are alignment tones?

On a reel-to-reel machine, there is less standardisation like there is on cassette, which tends to be a bit more set-and-forget. I think. I don't really use cassettes anymore.
Also, folks who are recording things professionally will want to tweak the system and make sure everything is still calibrated correctly.
So. On a professional or semi-pro reel-to-reel, you will have a set of adjustments to make before recording a master that you're going to send to someone else. First thing you would do is calibrate the repro circuits, basically the playback system. That is usually done by taking a tape with a test tone, and altering the head alignment and playback amplifiers until the signal is playing back as close to perfect as you can get it. The test tone comes from a calibration tape, usually one made by MRL. They're not cheap, but if you're making a reel-to-reel tape for someone else to play back on their system, it's a worthwhile expense.
After that, you'd load the deck up with the tape you're going to record on, record a test tone of your own, and adjust the recording level and bias until it is playing back correctly. You'd also want to tweak the erase system to make sure it is erasing properly.
Finally, when recording the master itself you would record a bunch of test tones at the start or end of the tape so the guy receiving it can check and adjust if need be.

Strictly, you'd need to do the same process to the cassette deck if you were sending the cassette to someone else.