Cascade Fathead II Ribbon Mic

Mountaineer

New member
Now that some very reasonably priced ribbon microphones are coming on the market, I decided to venture into experimenting with a ribbon. So, I sold a few condensers that I seldom used and ,after reading a few positive blurbs, I purchased a Cascade Fathead II ( $200 ) to try out on acoustic guitar and vocals. I used my only three preamps for testing, which included: Mackie Onyx ( Mackie 400F ), Focusrite TwinTrak, and a Grace 101. I had no idea how each of these would perform with a ribbon up-front and only hoped to have enough gain without an over abundance of noise.

I was greatly disappointed with testing I conducted through the Mackie Onyx pre's. Both acoustic guitar and vocals sounded dark and dull, so bad in fact, that I couldn't even get motivated to try some EQ techniques to improve it. You can't polish a turd. Instead, I moved on to the Grace 101, hoping what is generally my best pre wouldn't disappoint me. Unfortunately, it wasn't that much better. At this point, I figured I'd made a mistake with my purchase and was about to call my testing session quits and box up the mic for a quick return trip to the state of Washington. But, instead, while I was hooked up, I decided to try the TwinTrak.

What a difference! The Fathead II came to life! Over the next hour I recorded various acoustic guitar and vocal tracks that all sounded very smooth, airy, and natural with very little floor noise. I was wishing I had two of these to try them as a stereo pair into the TwinTrak. But, why did the Focusrite pre sound so much different .. so much better? With a little research, I discovered why ... Input Impedance!

While each of my preamps have roughly 60 dB of gain, the Mackie Onyx 400F has a fixed mic input impedance of 2400 ohms. The Grace 101 has a fixed mic input impedance of 1600 ohms. The Focusrite TwinTrak, on the other hand, has a variable input impedance knob which can vary mic input impedance from 50 to 3300 ohms. Out of curiosity, I looked at the specs of the Fathead a bit closer. They recommend 3000 ohms. After discovering this was the likely answer, I confirmed that backing off input impedance gave me negative results. This mic, and most likely ribbons in general, seem to love more input impedance. Again, out of curiosity, I looked at the specifications for the AEA Ribbon pre and found that it has over 80 dB of gain and an input impedance of 18,000 ohms!! I got my best results on acoustic guitar at the maximum setting of 3300 ohms and with the high-pass filter switch engaged to lower audible frequencies below 75 Hz. This mic has a response range from 18 Hz - 30 kHz and does a good job picking up the low end, something you probably don't want for an acoustic guitar you want to sit well in a mix.

Suffice it to say that I discovered a ribbon mic is a different animal. Preamp design, gain stage, and mic input impedance have a much greater affect on performance than any other mic I've ever used. You may want to keep this in mind should you decide to experiment with ribbons. I like the Fathead II, but haven't compared it to other ribbons at all. I now plan to order a second one. If you happen to have a Focusrite TwinTrak, I can say that it and the Fathead II are well matched in my opinion and I look forward to experimenting in stereo.

Regards,
Mountaineer
 
Also try turning it around 180 degrees, the Alctron ribbons have a very bright side to them if you use the back side, that is my experience with my shinybox 23.
 
And how can I compensate for this performance factor if I have no way of varying the input impedance on my mixer (MAckie SR244 VLZ Pro) or on my little mic preamp??

Is there some other way to match up or vary the input impedance??
 
soundchaser59 said:
And how can I compensate for this performance factor if I have no way of varying the input impedance on my mixer (MAckie SR244 VLZ Pro) or on my little mic preamp??

Is there some other way to match up or vary the input impedance??

Input impedance too low... add about a 1k resistor inline on both signal leads.

That said, the Cascade specs say the mic's impedance is <= 200 ohms, so a 1k input impedance should be the bare minimum, and indeed, that's what the specs I've seen for that mic recommend. Probably ideal would be 2k or more, but 3k should be unnecessary. The only major difference beyond about 10x the mic's output gain should be a drop in output level. Maybe the Focusrite preamp is brighter at higher gain. That's about all I can imagine.

An input impedance of 3k sounds a good bit higher than I'd expect for that mic. Indeed, it's way higher than the pres that work well for my Nady ribbons, which have similar electrical characteristics.

If this really is an impedance issue, I'm half wondering if one or more of your mic's transformer windings aren't duds... :)

Bear in mind also that ribbon pres for older ribbon mics are designed to handle high impedance ribbon mics, which would demand a much higher input impedance. All the modern ribbons are low impedance mics. An 18k impedance would probably result in a very weak signal which would require tons of clean gain to bring it up to something even usable.
 
dgatwood said:
Input impedance too low... add about a 1k resistor inline on both signal leads.

I would not recommend doing it. You will lose signal and we don't want it with ribbons when we are fighting for every db of noise.

Much better way of doing that would be increasing loading resistor value of the pre input.
 
Marik said:
I would not recommend doing it. You will lose signal and we don't want it with ribbons when we are fighting for every db of noise.

Much better way of doing that would be increasing loading resistor value of the pre input.

I didn't say it was a great idea... that said, if I did the math right, I'm thinking that's about a 3dB drop, which is probably not enough of a drop to be worth worrying about if it makes the sound a lot clearer... and my way doesn't involve solder mods on the circuit board of a $1400 mixer.... :D

The best answer is really to use a preamp that's better suited to the job.... If you can't do that, I guess you could try to hunt down an appropriately sized impedance matching transformer to bring the ribbon's output up a bit so that the loading isn't so detrimental. I hesitate to just throw a transformer at such a problem, though, given the potential for quality loss with cheap transformers.... I'd try the easiest fix first (inline resistor) and if that doesn't work, try the next easiest.
 
Maybe I dont need to worry about it then, cuz the Fathead Z is <=200 ohms, and the Apex 210 Z is the same, and my other mics are all about 200 ohm output Z, while the mixer is definitely running input Z of 2k ohms, and I believe the little mic preamp is also showing a 2k input Z.

Maybe I'm ok with what I have.....
 
dgatwood said:
Input impedance too low... add about a 1k resistor inline on both signal leads.

That said, the Cascade specs say the mic's impedance is <= 200 ohms, so a 1k input impedance should be the bare minimum, and indeed, that's what the specs I've seen for that mic recommend. Probably ideal would be 2k or more, but 3k should be unnecessary. The only major difference beyond about 10x the mic's output gain should be a drop in output level. Maybe the Focusrite preamp is brighter at higher gain. That's about all I can imagine.

An input impedance of 3k sounds a good bit higher than I'd expect for that mic. Indeed, it's way higher than the pres that work well for my Nady ribbons, which have similar electrical characteristics.

If this really is an impedance issue, I'm half wondering if one or more of your mic's transformer windings aren't duds... :)

Bear in mind also that ribbon pres for older ribbon mics are designed to handle high impedance ribbon mics, which would demand a much higher input impedance. All the modern ribbons are low impedance mics. An 18k impedance would probably result in a very weak signal which would require tons of clean gain to bring it up to something even usable.

Why would an input impedance load of 18k cause a drop in volume over an inpedance load of 3k?
 
I use 64-65dB of gain on my AEA TRP with my stock ShinyBox 23, for my wifes vocals. Which is about what I use with my VTB-1s. And about what I used with my ART DPS II when I had it still. Or would those numbers not matter as they are already compensated for input impedence loading for each piece what ever those numbers may be?

I like the AEA, no matter what the numbers may be or should be, grab, borrow, rent, steal, one and take a listen, its just clean full nice gain, perfect for my shinybox ribbon.
 
sdelsolray said:
Why would an input impedance load of 18k cause a drop in volume over an inpedance load of 3k?

Because even though the input impedance the mic sees is increased, the signal voltage is still read across the mic pre inputs. The two extra resistors are in series with the pre's impedance, on either side of it. Basically you have three resistors in series. Resistors in series form a voltage divider. The voltage measured across any one resistor will be a proportional fraction of the total across all of them.

pin2-----1K resistor--*--mic pre--*--1K resistor-----pin3


The asterisks are where the signal voltage is read by the pre.


If the signal was read here:

pin2--*--1K resistor-----mic pre-----1K resistor--*--pin3


the full voltage would be available. But that won't happen if you tack on some inline resistors, you will get a voltage loss, because the mic pre is now reading the voltage across one resistor in a series voltage divider.
 
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Hey, I think I may have misinterpreted your question. The explanation I gave was for why you would get a signal loss if you added resistors to get an 18K input impedance.

:p

I can't see why it would happen.
 
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Hey Mountaineer,

I'm really interested in ribbon mics, especially this one. Do you have any vocal samples to post, or some to email?

Love to hear it.

Thanks!
 
dgatwood:
The spec sheet that came with the Fat Head II shows it has a "nominal" or output impedance of around 600 ohms and recommends a "load" or input impedance of 3000 ohms. From what I read, this is common for ribbon design. Here are two quotes from the Focusrite TwinTrak user's manual regarding preamp input impedance and ribbon microphones:


"The impedance of a ribbon microphone is worthy of special mention, as this type of microphone is affected enormously by pre-amp impedance."

"It is recommended that a mic pre-amp connected to a ribbon microphone should have an input impedance of at least 5 times the nominal microphone impedance."


Both of these quotes confirm my findings, down to the math with the Fat Head II specs ... 600 ohms x 5 = 3000 ohms. I got my best results at 3000 + ohms. I certainly can't tell if my transformer windings are duds or not, but if they are, I hope I get another dud! :D

Earl,
Sorry, I still have dial-up and have no place to readily upload sound samples. They would be highly subjective anyway and degraded by the MP3 conversion process. Cascade has sound samples on their web site. Check them out.

Regards,
Mountaineer
 
sdelsolray said:
Why would an input impedance load of 18k cause a drop in volume over an inpedance load of 3k?

Because I'm on crack. Sorry about that. I was still thinking about an inline resistor.

Having an input impedance that's too high might make the signal chain more susceptible to electrical interference, though.
 
Mountaineer said:
dgatwood:
The spec sheet that came with the Fat Head II shows it has a "nominal" or output impedance of around 600 ohms and recommends a "load" or input impedance of 3000 ohms. From what I read, this is common for ribbon design. Here are two quotes from the Focusrite TwinTrak user's manual regarding preamp input impedance and ribbon microphones:

If that's what the spec sheet says, then yeah, you're right. But the specs on various sellers' websites say <=200 ohms for the mic's impedance, so I'd say that Cascade needs to get their act together... and frankly, they need to fix their design. 600 ohm output impedance is just wrong in a modern mic. :D
 
It would be really hard to change the input impedance of the Mackie Boards..you would need a schematic (not sure exactly how they balance/unbalance the mic signal but I am sure it involes cheap opamps)...with a transformer based pre you can adjust the impedance by changing the loading resistor accross the input transformer's secondary..these are not resistors in parallel! That would make the afforementioned voltage divider..essentially you would be padding the signal..not good. You could also place a potentiometer (just a variable resistor) accross the transformer secodary and adjust to taste..
Dynamics LOVE higher impedances as well..Ever hear a 57 into a properly loaded pre? You can't simply put a series resistor in front of the opamp in those pre's...

Ray
 
Mountaineer said:
dgatwood:
The spec sheet that came with the Fat Head II shows it has a "nominal" or output impedance of around 600 ohms and recommends a "load" or input impedance of 3000 ohms.

From Cascades own web site spec sheet.....

Cascade Fathead Mic

It clearly says "Output impedance <=200 ohms" for both the Fathead and the Fathead II. The spec sheet I got with mine says the same thing as the web site. Maybe they sent you the wrong spec sheet.....

Sorry, not trying to argue, I'm just another guy trying to maximize the quality of the signal from my ribbon..... :(
 
soundchaser59 said:
It clearly says "Output impedance <=200 ohms" for both the Fathead and the Fathead II.
(

Well, it clearly says:
Ribbon type & Dimensions: Pure aluminum, 2.5 micron, 1 3/4" (L) X 3/16" (W)

I just got one for modification and measured the ribbon thickness as 5.5 micron. Also, to me it looks like rather made of duralum. Go figure...

In any case, the compliance of the material used is so poor that it makes me wondering, if people who praise those mics have ever heard nice ribbons?
 
Marik said:
In any case, the compliance of the material used is so poor that it makes me wondering, if people who praise those mics have ever heard nice ribbons?

I have not...... not ever heard a nice ribbon, that is.

And what happens to the sound if the ribbon is too thick?

I wonder if the Cascades are made by the same people who make the Nady's and the Apex?
 
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