Can you have too many mics when recording a drum kit?

Spikeh

Spikeh

New member
I've been refining my drum kit recording technique for the past couple of years - mainly been recording hard rock and metal, and I keep buying new mics to improve / reinforce the sound...

Here is how I currently mic up:

Bass Drum
- AKG D112 about 2 inches from the bass skin, offset from the kick pedal by about 5 inches. Use this for the "click".
- Samson Q-Kick (my first kick mic, just used as a backup mic) just outside the front of the kick drum. This gets the "woomph".

Snare
- SM57 on the top, about 2" from the surface, pointed at the middle of the skin. This gets the snap and ambience of the snare.
- SM57 on the bottom, about 2" from the skin, directly on the snare wires. I use this if I need some extra snare sound.

Overheads
- Tried various configurations over the years - X/Y, Coincident, Spaced, close micing cymbals... still not entirely happy. The hi-hat is always generally too loud, though I've recently purchased some lighter hi-hats, that I'm going to try this week.
I use AKG C1000S's, but have also tried a single AT4033.

Tom-toms
- An SM57 on each tom, hooked on the top with Samson Drum Mic Clips, pointed directly at the middle of the tom.
- A Samson Q-Tom mic underneath the tom.
- Moongels, as appropriate.

Hi-Hat
- Rode NT5, aimed at the top of the hi-hat, pointed towards the floor.

Too many mics? Overkill? Any suggestions on placement? I generally get a good kick and snare sound, but I'm struggling with toms. Overheads are getting better, I just need to spend a bit more time on placing them than I do :)
 
you have an impressive array of mikes lined up for the kit, and i wish you luck. However, you asked the question, and my answer is 'yes'.

My general rule is to start with the least you need to get the job done, then add only when necessary.

I've succesfully recorded a kit with a single mike; an NT5 on a stand about 2 feet in front of the kit, aimed at the snare between the cymbals.

However, more usually I try to get by with three: one on kick, and two overheads over the drummer's shoulder, again pointed towards the snare. I usually cover my bases by sticking another mike on the snare and recording this as well, and feeding as much as necessary of this into the three mike mix.

I never worry about high-hat . . . there's usually enough of it picked up elsewhere.

Occasionally I've used seven mikes on a kit, but the difference it made was not enough for me to want to do that all the time.
 
Well, I haven't yet tried the extra mics under the toms - I've only recently got myself the extra SM57s to replace the Q-Toms, so I'm going to try it out this week. If it doesn't help, I won't bother in the future.

I really don't like the idea of leaving the Overheads to deal with the cymbals and the toms... with it being rock, the toms tend to be used for rhythmic reasons rather than just fills, so I consider thgem important. They need that "epic" feel to them imo...

The hi-hat usually gets turned down or off completely after I record it, but it's come in handy sometimes when it needs emphasising in the middle of a song or something...
 
I don't think you can have too many mics when recording, just remember that the mute button is your friend! It's better to overmic and mute things out (like your under-toms or 2nd kick mic, for instance), than to record with 3 mics and whine that your toms don't cut through.

I've tried miking toms from the top, bottom, side, up to a foot above (only for triggering obviously), and all sorts of angles and have just gone back to the 'standard' position an inch or two into the top head. I guess that's why standards are there - they sound good!

It's great that you're experimenting, and I say keep doing it until you find the set-up that gets you the sound you want, however many mics you use.
 
Well, when my new sound card + AD/DA interfaces get here this week, we'll be recording straight away.

Can't wait... the quality should shoot right up, not to mention the new SM57s etc... should sound a lot better :)
 
If the mics interfear with the drummer's playing in any way... you have too many. Otherwise use as many as you are comfortable with and your mixer allows. It's a lot easier to turn down anything you don't need than it is to try to bring up something that should have been given an extra mic.
 
I recall doing a session a few years ago in a studio where we used 15 mics on a kit. Sounded awesome. All the toms were over and under mic. Plus most of the overal kit inc cymbols.

Its more about what kinda of sound your trying to capture. I believe we were trying to reference a counting crows song. worked well!
 
Well, for this kit I'll be using 15 mics... there are 4 toms :)

I'm even tempted to re-record certain tom hits / rolls on different tracks to give it more emphasis... a "wall of sound" if you will. Not sure if i'll work yet, but I'll sure find out :)

Even tempted to use two / three condensers in the room as ambience mics... but I can imagine phasing would be an issue then.
 
Man, I think you should learn to walk before you enter a marathon.

If you can't get a decent sound out of your overheads, then you're probably not ready to record with more than 4 mics.....Certainly not FIFTEEEN!!!!!!!

Overheads should be where most of your sound comes from, so you need to be able to get a good sound from them. Like a few people mentioned, you can never have too many mics...as long as you know that you can mute them, too.

There's no reason why someone can't get a good sound from their kit with just 4 mics: Snare, Kik, 2 Overheads. YES, even for ROCK.
 
When I say decent, I mean I'm picky. Lots of people like the sound of my drums, but I've just got an idea in my head what they should sound like, and anything less, isn't good enough.
 
Spikeh said:
When I say decent, I mean I'm picky. Lots of people like the sound of my drums, but I've just got an idea in my head what they should sound like, and anything less, isn't good enough.
Click to expand...
Just remember that as a drummer, you have an entirely different listening experience than anyone else. What you hear sitting at the throne is not what people in the audience hears, and most likely will not be what the recording will hear either. Be willing to make that translation when listening, otherwise you will never be happy.

G.
 
I'm not a drummer :) I think I just want to get a really big sounding kit, lots of attack and lots of definition... epic toms etc... like really pro albums I hear.

I'll get there one day :)
 
Spikeh said:
I'm not a drummer :) I think I just want to get a really big sounding kit, lots of attack and lots of definition... epic toms etc... like really pro albums I hear.

I'll get there one day :)
Click to expand...

I understand that. The problem is that you're equating "MORE" with" Bigger" and "Better". Are you aware of the possible phase issues you might have to deal with????

I'll say it again. If you can't get a good sound with 4 mics, more of them is not going to solve your problem.

You should be reading up on phase cancellation, overhead mic placement, and everything else that has to do with recording drums. You'll probably realise that some of your favorite drum tracks were done with way less mics than you think.
 
Aye, I've read up on phase cancellation etc... pretty good with that aspect of mic placement now! and also read a hell of a lot on overhead placement. Next time we record, I'll be experimenting a bit more, see what I can get from it.

I'm aware that more mics doesn't neccesarily mean better sound, I just love my gear :) Plus I always think the toms need more reinforcement than just the overheads...
 
Spikeh said:
I've been refining my drum kit recording technique for the past couple of years - mainly been recording hard rock and metal, and I keep buying new mics to improve / reinforce the sound...

Here is how I currently mic up:

Bass Drum
- AKG D112 about 2 inches from the bass skin, offset from the kick pedal by about 5 inches. Use this for the "click".
- Samson Q-Kick (my first kick mic, just used as a backup mic) just outside the front of the kick drum. This gets the "woomph".

Snare
- SM57 on the top, about 2" from the surface, pointed at the middle of the skin. This gets the snap and ambience of the snare.
- SM57 on the bottom, about 2" from the skin, directly on the snare wires. I use this if I need some extra snare sound.

Overheads
- Tried various configurations over the years - X/Y, Coincident, Spaced, close micing cymbals... still not entirely happy. The hi-hat is always generally too loud, though I've recently purchased some lighter hi-hats, that I'm going to try this week.
I use AKG C1000S's, but have also tried a single AT4033.

Tom-toms
- An SM57 on each tom, hooked on the top with Samson Drum Mic Clips, pointed directly at the middle of the tom.
- A Samson Q-Tom mic underneath the tom.
- Moongels, as appropriate.

Hi-Hat
- Rode NT5, aimed at the top of the hi-hat, pointed towards the floor.

Too many mics? Overkill? Any suggestions on placement? I generally get a good kick and snare sound, but I'm struggling with toms. Overheads are getting better, I just need to spend a bit more time on placing them than I do :)
Click to expand...

thats so funny i have the EXACT same set up except instea dof the 4033 i have 2020's. My first set was teh samsons and i love to use them as reinforcments. They works so freaking well.
 
Personally, I do not believe that thhere is such a thing as overmicing, unless like mentioned above it interferes with actual playing. Overmixing with said mics would be the larger issue here. It is a good idea to fully understand how your core mics affect things and their placement, but when dealing with that forward large drum sound present on so many albums, more mics and better mixing is how that will happen.

Rami mentioned that there are many albums out there that might surprise you at how few mics were used. This is true, but at the same time there is another truth... There are probably 3 times that many albums out there, at least on releases recorded in major studio, where many more mics were used than you might think once you get into room mics, top and bottom toms, 3 to 4 snare mics, additional cymbal mics etc... What might be the most important thing to remember here is that in most of these situations these engineers have rooms, musicians, kits, tunings, mics, preamps, comps and gates, but most RAW EXPERIENCE that many people here do not have. All of the these things combined make these more advanced setups much more feasible.
 
I have the samson qkit too... I still use the qkick regularly, though I use sm57s instead of the rest.

I think Elton Bear made a very good point before. Sure mic up the whole kit, but don't be afraid to cut the tracks that aren't adding anything worthwhile to the mix, you can always remove a track at mixdown, but you can't add more...

You're gonna need to do a lot of gating, probably on every drum mic. As long as you have the mics up that you would usually record with (and you say get good results with) you can always fall back on those tracks.

Good luck!
 
xstatic said:
Rami mentioned that there are many albums out there that might surprise you at how few mics were used. This is true, but at the same time there is another truth... There are probably 3 times that many albums out there, at least on releases recorded in major studio, where many more mics were used than you might think once you get into room mics, top and bottom toms, 3 to 4 snare mics, additional cymbal mics etc... What might be the most important thing to remember here is that in most of these situations these engineers have rooms, musicians, kits, tunings, mics, preamps, comps and gates, but most RAW EXPERIENCE that many people here do not have. All of the these things combined make these more advanced setups much more feasible.
Click to expand...

I agree with you. The room, gear, and experience, as you mentioned, is a huge variable, though.
 
Nothing wrong with having 100 crayons in the box, even if you end up using only 6 to draw the picture with. This is true with every aspect of a recording.... you have to be ready to mute any track that isn't really adding to the mix.

One aspect I didn't hear mentioned though is this;

If your DAW resources are being taxed, and other aspects of the song are being short sheeted because of all the drum tracks, then maybe you have too many drum tracks, or need to use freeze or something. Probly not an issue for most DAWs these days, but still worth mentioning.
 
My DAW is fine, it's 3Ghz Dual Core + 2GB RAM, plus got an RME HDSP9652 on the way... which should take even more load off my system.

I've recorded 24 simultaneous tracks through my delta 1010s before now... on my older PC, so performance isn't an issue :)

I'll use a load of mics and let you know how it goes... going to spend a lot more time listening to different mic placements this time around.
 
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