Can I use omni small diaphragm condenser mics for XY stereo far away pointing?
- Thread starter gongli
- Start date
bouldersoundguy
Well-known member
X/Y requires cardioid pattern mics.
bouldersoundguy
Well-known member
Oh, and with X/Y at a distance the cello will be essentially mono but you'll capture the room in stereo. I hope your room sounds fantastic.
John Willett
Circle Sound Services
No - you are wrong about this - you can use any directional mic. in X/Y - but you should *not* use omni.
bouldersoundguy
Well-known member
Bipolar pattern mics are "directional" but when you have a coincident pair at 90° it's called a Blumlein pair, not X/Y, so I'd say you're wrong about that.
You can get a stereo effect using super- and hyper-cardiod patterns, but it's not the fully formed image of a pair of coincident cardiods at 90°. With the narrower patterns the middle of the image will be lacking. Do it if you like it, call it what you want. I'll use cardioids.
rob aylestone
Moderator
Then this is a good example of Blumlein - where the rear facing lobes hear the room in great detail. Only good of course if the room sound is supportive not destructive.
For me the definitive guide to stereo techniques is the DPA Microphone university.
DPA Microphones :: Microphone University: Stereo Techniques
Figure 8 microphones are also included in this category, Blumlein is a specific type of X/Y.
Well worth a read, if you have not seen it. We're splitting hairs here, but best to do it and put things into the right pigeon hole.
For me the definitive guide to stereo techniques is the DPA Microphone university.
DPA Microphones :: Microphone University: Stereo Techniques
Figure 8 microphones are also included in this category, Blumlein is a specific type of X/Y.
Well worth a read, if you have not seen it. We're splitting hairs here, but best to do it and put things into the right pigeon hole.
rob aylestone
Moderator
I'm certainly not a heck of an engineer, but thanks. The DPA site has been going for years and is a favourite one for colleges and universities when they want to know the subtle differences. It's advice has worked well for me over the years. With a cello, don't be afraid to experiment. They all seem to record very differently to how they sound to your ears!
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
This is my understanding as well, with the additional consideration that Rob mentioned of the rear lobes on hyper and super cardioid giving a potentially unpleasant effect depending on the room.
Certainly, the "standard" mic for X/Y work is cardioid even if you can get some kind of stereo effect with other directional pick up patterns.
rob aylestone
Moderator
The really important features of all the different systems relate to differences in time and/or differences in amplitude. What the microphone 'collects' is more down to choice and appropriateness than stereo. Blumlein often produces horrible results in spaces where the rear pickup is a bit of a mess, and I suppose the polarity reversal from the back works against you too. I've tried Blumlein twice in a large church and a smaller one, and won't try it again, I doubt. I've got a rather nice Chinese microphone with two multi-pattern capsules one over the other like the old Neumanns it's styled on, and cardioid works best on most sources, and you can rotate the angle through 90 degrees depending on the width of the sound source. When I was very young, I did some sessions with a big band, and they were after mega separation as stereo was quite new - so the woodwind were on one side of the room, the brass on the other, with drums and bass in the middle. Wide spaced microphones, and the do-wah was very powerful, and totally unrealistic. I recorded that way myself for quite a while, until I realised it just wasn't like a human hears - very very wide and often with a big drop in level for instruments in the gap. Now I tend to put headphones on, and then move the mics around and change patterns until it sounds 'whole'. I quite like spaced omni on a grand piano. Not too far apart, but it works nicely for me.
bouldersoundguy
Well-known member
Spaced pairs are interesting, especially when doing binaural recordings, but generally I find coincident pairs more practical for what I do.
But for something like a cello I would agree about experimenting. You don't necessarily have to use a stereo mic technique to get two channels you can mix in stereo. On guitars it's common to put one mic where the neck meets the body and one mic down by the bridge.
But for something like a cello I would agree about experimenting. You don't necessarily have to use a stereo mic technique to get two channels you can mix in stereo. On guitars it's common to put one mic where the neck meets the body and one mic down by the bridge.
John Willett
Circle Sound Services
No I'm not - Blumline is X/Y.
But X/Y is not necessarily Blumlein.
But wide-cardioid, super-cardioid and hyper-cardioid are *all* X/Y if used like that, as a coincident pair.
And Hyper-cardioids used X/Y can give very good results.
Yes - cardioids are probably the best option inmany cases, but that's not to say the other paterns are also valid in many situations and are stell X/Y if uses as a coincident pair.
Personally, I stopped using X/Y years ago and prefer M/S or ORTF.
John Willett
Circle Sound Services
Going back to the original question.....
It's useful to know how a cello radiates sound at different frequencies when placing the mics - see below:-
bouldersoundguy
Well-known member
No I'm not - Blumline is X/Y.
But X/Y is not necessarily Blumlein.
My main point ("call it what you like") is that it doesn't matter what arbitrary name is arbitrarily given to something. And 99% of the times you say X-Y people will think of cardioids at 90° because using narrower pattern mics is rare and Blumlein has its own name.
John Willett
Circle Sound Services
I have *never* thought of X/Y as cardioids at 90˚ - X/Y is just a way of saying coincident microphones.
You can use other angles than 90˚, and other polar-patterns - in fact hyper-cardioids at 110˚ can be quite useful.
X/Y is just a generic term.
Just because you see it at cardioids at 90˚, does not mean everyone else does and if you are trying to advise someone you need to be clear what you mean.
That's all I'm saying.
bouldersoundguy
Well-known member
When I said you're wrong I didn't mean it literally, I was just reflecting your language back at you. Technically you're right and I'm wrong, but in practical terms if I said "X/Y" without specifying which type everyone, even pedants like us, would know what I meant.
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
I'm kinda with bouldersoundguy on this one.
Yes, there are all sorts of variants of X-Y/Coincident Pair miking techniques.
However, if somebody simply says "X-Y" without providing any kind of detail or modifier, he either means cardioids at 90 degrees...or doesn't know what he's talking about. Arguing otherwise is an exercise in semantics, not practicalities.
Yes, there are all sorts of variants of X-Y/Coincident Pair miking techniques.
However, if somebody simply says "X-Y" without providing any kind of detail or modifier, he either means cardioids at 90 degrees...or doesn't know what he's talking about. Arguing otherwise is an exercise in semantics, not practicalities.
John Willett
Circle Sound Services
If someone said X/Y to me, I would normally assume he probably meant cardioids - but I would certainly *not* think 90˚, as the angle would depend on the room and the distance.
M/S with a cardioid mid actually approximates to an X/Y pair of hyper-cardioids - so X/Y with hypers is just as valid as X/Y with cardioids.
But then, I suppose, I have always had a very open mind on microphone technique and used what was appropriate for the recording conditions.
I have actually known people who have used X/Y with interference tube gun microphones (with quite a narrow angle of course) very successfully in nature recording.
I was really surprised at your comment that people would automatically assume X/Y meant cardioids at 90˚, because X/Y is such a versatile technique with many options - and was amazed that people would see it with such a narrow and fixed opinion.