Can I soundproof and get air conditiong for $10,000

[thelivingexampl]

Halo..

I posted a message earlier about possibly building an addition on my house, and got some great advice, but that may not be possible now. My garage may be my last hope of a room that may accomodate this studio project. I will attempt to attach a JPG of a horrible drawing of my garage and dimensions. I was told by someone that the control room may not have to be soundproofed if the monitors are not very big. 9 times out of 10 I will be the one playing instruments and won't be in there monitoring anyway, so that isn't a big deal. My mian concern again is soundproofing so my neighbors don't call the cops at 3am while I am playing my drums.
Please take a look at the pic and let me know, albeit a teeny control room and close to getting there small live/recording room, if I can soundproof it, buy an AC unit, and fit a drum kit, a full guitar stack, a bass stack, vocal amp and lik 3 stools in the live room for $10,000(I already own the music gear)

Thanks again in advance for everyone's advice/experience.

Also, someone mentioned heatpumps for AC and heat, do they make ones that aren't 10 grand each?

Thanks,
Jim

 

[frederic]

If you use tiny studio monitors you don't need a large room, because there isn't enough bass to energize the air in the room.

True.

But do you want to mix in a room were any bass will be extremely overwhelming? Or a room that slap-backs from wall to wall will give you a headache in a few minutes?

Probably not.

5x8 is a tiny room, in fact thats the dimensions of my vocal booth in my home studio, so let me make a few suggestions if I may.

Seal up the tiny room to be a vocal booth, to record one instrument at a time. Vocals, horns, even guitars. Make the room as dead as possible because its small. Any reverberation you need to add for "liveliness" can be done using foldback in the larger room or one of many digital effects units.

Put the control room in the big room, so you can take advantage of the air in the room for quality mixing. When recording, have the console operator record everything (in the booth, or in the garage), completely dry, using the VU meters as a guide as to the volume on the recording. Record it with no effects, no EQ, no delay, no chorus, flanging nothing. Record completely dry.

Once you record everything either together or seperately, you can then use the big room to mix.

If you put all the recording gear across the short wall, or even better in the corner, the large room should still have enough room for a drumkit, amps, and a variety of other things.

The key is to record dry, then you can use headphones for the mixing engineer and record in the same room.

Now onto your other question: $10K is doable, but you will need to be resourceful. The more labor you do yourself (or have friends do in trade, or for beer/pizza) the lower costs you can have. Central air is not cheap, I've had estimates in the 25K here in NJ for my home, but I picked up a 4 ton commercial unit for $400 from some company that went out of business. All it needed was a few fittings and obviously i'll have to recharge the freon substitute. Ductwork is fairly inexpensive, but will require some legwork to find the cheapest prices.

Be aware that central air does make noise in the ducts, so you'll want to take care of that by inserting filters into the ducts, or possibly some other kind of soft mounting (rubber fittings) at weird angles. Lots of ways to fix this.

Also, go to http://www.johnlsayers.com for more ideas on soundproofing. No sense in re-explaining what he's already said very well and clear.

Good luck!

 

[thelivingexampl]

Thanks for the reply!

As far as the control room goes, if it would be better to keep the majority of the instruments in the bigger part that I allocated in the garage(both rooms make up the whole garage), and would also be doing my mixing in there, would it make sense just for me to make one big room and have whomever is monitoring the recording use headphones?
This room is basically going to allow me to play after hours. I happen to have a 24.4 mackie board, layla, and a lot of microphones to pick up whatever mess it is that we are playing. If I can record "rough drafts" or even get a live gig recording sound out of the room I will be really happy. I know I am not going to be able to get really professional quality, and will most likely not have a sound engineer sitting there monitoring since it will just be the band, so my main concern is just the soundproofing. I had mentioned in an earlier post that one big room was my idea all along, but the seperate control room sounded like a good idea "just in case" we tried to do an individual instrument recording session, then the rest of the band or anyone else there, could go and hide in the room and not mess up any track by possibly making noise.

What do you recommend that I use as far as materials that will fit in my budget and keep the noise in the room late at night?

For the AC ducts I read about using many right angles before it gets in the room to stop the noise from makig ti's way in .. have you ever known anyone that did that?

Thanks again for the reply!
Jim

 

[frederic]

also be doing my mixing in there, would it make sense just for me to make one big room and have whomever is monitoring the recording use headphones?

If the recording engineer is going to record everything dry, meaning no EQ, no reverb, no chorus, flange or whatever, then yes, headphones are fine. If recording dry, the only thing that matters is the sound makes it through the console to a tape track (tape being actual tape, or a hard disk, or whatever), and that the level doesn't peg the meters. In fact, you probably don't even need the headphones for the recording phase.

The mixing phase is when you add all the "stuff", tweak pan, EQ, etc, in which case you're not having your guitarist playing with the marshall stack on "11". At least hopefully not.

I'd put everything in one room, and section off the smaller area for a vocal booth, just in case. Leave it open for now, do it later, thats fine too.

However, recording dry, you need to make sure your mixer can support enough microphones for everything, one per track, and one per buss, otherwise you have to merge things or record the drummer first (stereo mix), then record the bass, then record the guitar, then record the vocalist(s). If this is the case, then that little room being a vocal booth is more important.

There are many ways to skin this cat BTW, my suggestion will work, and its one of many solutions. I'm a big fan of dry recording, then mixing later when the tylenol sets in.

What do you recommend that I use as far as materials that will fit in my budget and keep the noise in the room late at night?

Auralex foam, staggered studs, dumptrucks full of rockwool, the usual soundproofing materials.

For the AC ducts I read about using many right angles before it gets in the room to stop the noise from makig ti's way in .. have you ever known anyone that did that?

Right angles by itself doesn't completely eliminate the noise if the blower is big enough. I'm a huge fan of comfort so I have no problem utlizing a huge blower. Right angles help in a major way, but you can fabricate a fitting that will allow you to put a filter (or two or three) in the duct so that the noise is scattered into the filter. Think of it as auralex for air conditioning

 

[DigitalDon]

Air Conditioning - One thing you have to keep in mind is not to restrict the air flow too much. If you do, your system can't unload the tonnage it's capable of producing. If this happens you'll freeze up your coil in the air handler. This restricts the flow even more. When the coil thaws it could dump more water than your drain pan and drain line can handle. Now you've got water overflowing the pan and causing all kinds of problems.

In the studio I just built behind my house I resolved not to run the air while actually recording. It's a compromise (one of many) but one I can live with. My building is insulated much better than my house and will hold temperature very well. I suspect that once you "soundproof" your garage you'll have very good control over temperature. Just my 2 cents.

DD

 

[ob]

Regarding the A/C - heat pump issue - I got a mini-split heat pump unit. It has a wall mounted unit and an outside compressor, so the only hole is for the tubing from the wall mounted unit out to the compressor. No ducts, no other parts. It gets mounted near the ceiling and blows downward. Best of all, it has a wireless remote, so when you need to shut it off to record, you don't have to get up.

I got mine at www.genieac.com. It is a 12,000 btu unit (what does that translate into in terms of tons?), and it was $700 with shipping to the east coast. It will probabaly cost just as much to get it installed, but it is a lot less than $10,000.

WARNING: My unit does not have auxiliarly heat, so if you live in a very cold climate, you may look for that feature.

Want to learn more? Go to www.mini-split.com.

 

[MikeA]

Halo..

9 times out of 10 I will be the one playing instruments and won't be in there monitoring anyway, so that isn't a big deal. My mian concern again is soundproofing so my neighbors don't call the cops at 3am while I am playing my drums.

frederic's right. Use the little room for a vocal/iso booth and make the main room your tracking/control room. Build it with as much isolation as possible from the main room so you can put a stack of Marshall's in it, crank it to 11 and let your guitarist play using the studio monitors to hear what he's doing. Use the $10K you've got make it comfortable and to do what needs to be done to make sure your neighbors can't hear you playing your drums at 3 am. If you do most of the work yourself you shouldn't have a big problem doing what needs to be done for $10K. Study John's site for methods and techniques. This ought to be a real workable little space for you.

 

[frederic]

Regarding the A/C - heat pump issue - I got a mini-split heat pump unit. It has a wall mounted unit and an outside compressor, so the only hole is for the tubing from the wall
Want to learn more? Go to www.mini-split.com.

OB,

I *beg* you, please, document the installation if you can, because after reading through both sites (mostly the mini-split.com site), I'm almost sold on the idea.

My studio/garage loft is attached to the house, but it was a botch job thus not sharing attic or crawl space, so a system like that might be an excellent solution to my a/c problem. I can then use the larger unit I bought for the house and have two systems.

If you don't mind that is.

 

[ob]

Well, I am not quite at the installation process yet - the HVAC contractor said he can get to it in a week or two (busy season for them, you know). Anyway, from what he has told me and what I read in the manual, it's pretty simple: The inside unit hangs on a wall, via a mounting plate which gets attached to the drywall. It weighs about 12 pounds. It has a fan and controls, and as I said above, it has a wireless remote (like a TV remote) to run the thing, which is great if you are all settled in with guitar in lap and ready to go, but need to turn off the HVAC unit.

The inside unit is conected to the outside unit by tubes and power cable (I think), which all together is around 3 inches in diameter. For my installation, this tube bundle will come through the drywall to connect to the inside unit, will do a downward turn and run through the floor (I have a second story garage apartment which will be my studio) while still behind the drywall, and then will be routed through the brick wall below for connection to the outside unit. The outside unit is roughly 15" deep, 32" long and 18" high, so it is smaller than a normal A/C outside unit.

My system runs on 120v, which I chose, but they also come in 220v models. Some also run on gas, if you have that access.

The advantages to me are no ducts, and only one 3 inch hole in the drywall, which I will insulate around. On my model, the outside unit can be a pretty good distance away - 40 feet or so - but this isn't a problem for me.

By the way, your rooms are almost the same size and dimensions as my rooms, so my unit might work for you, too.

If you want, send me an email and I will send you a copy of my owners/installation manual. It might help you make a decision.

 

[frederic]

By the way, your rooms are almost the same size and dimensions as my rooms, so my unit might work for you, too.

Thank you for explaining it in detail, I had the idea but you gave me further clarity.

if you want, send me an email and I will send you a copy of my owners/installation manual. It might help you make a decision. [/B]

I would much appreciate that, I tried sending an email through this BBS and got a "VB" error of some sort, so if I could trouble you to send it to me directly, I'd greatly appreciate it.

frederic@midimonkey.dyndns.org

Thanks!

 

[thelivingexampl]

That setup sounds awesome since you don't have to run the ducts at all. I thought I got your point, but just to be sure, with this unit, you would have to turn the AC off when playing? Do you happen to know how loud it gets, because when i play the drums I sweat like a pig and need air conditioning or something to stay cool, and half the time that I would be in the studio would be to play, the other half to mess around with whatever I recorded. Let me know when you can.

MikeA,
If the guitarist or singer is in the vocal booth, and everyone else hears him through monitors, how does the guitarist/singer hear the rest of the band? Would I put two sets of monitors, one for each room?
Does it seem like a silly idea to make one giant room since I will most likely never have someone running the mixing board?

My big anxiety lies in not building in the space I have to it's fullest potential, and also getting finished building and then having the neighbors still be able to hear me. Does anyone know of any books or have any plans with the construction of the room literally spelled out for the builder?

Thanks,
Jim

PS. There's no turning back, I just took out the loan, UGH!

 

[ob]

The reason to shut off the unit while recording is so that you don't pick up the sound of the unit. These things aresupposed to be quiet, but they still put out around 40 db when running. In a small room, I'm sure decent mics will pick that up.

 

[frederic]

If the guitarist or singer is in the vocal booth, and everyone else hears him through monitors, how does the guitarist/singer hear the rest of the band? Would I put two sets of monitors, one for each room?

Headphones! One of the best things I ever purchased was an oz audio headphone amp. Actually, two. It has four outputs to drive headphones on the front panel and mirrored on the rear panel. It also has a stereo feed for each headset, and a seperate stereo feed that each headset can be switched to independantly of other headphones. This is good so the guitar player can hear everything to toss in solos and little riffs, and the bass/drummer can hear each other and lock themselves to each other. Assuming you can buss your mixer that way (this is where more busses can be very useful, actually).

Does it seem like a silly idea to make one giant room since I will most likely never have someone running the mixing board?

Yes and no, it can be done either way. But, if you put the mixing console in a tiny room your mixing will be hampered severely by the lack of air. As I said above, you can record in the big room (console in big room too), use headphones for the engineer, and record everything dry. Once recorded, you can use the monitors as loud as you need, and mix without ambient noise bothering you. During the mixing phase, the guitar player should be drinking coffee, not tuning his guitar

And my suggestion(s) are just one of many that will suit that space, there are probably 5-6 good ways to use that space. This is the way I had my home studio setup before I tore it down, and if you are interested, I'd be happy to share all the details of the before home studio, and what its going to be once I'm done getting rid of the mouse-poop covered insultation. Just let me know.

I think I iterated it on the "Where is Rick" thread about 80% down the thread list.

www.johnlsayers.com offers tremendous detail as to construction techniques and such, and is in plain english. There are other references too.

Remember that air is really a very dispurse fluid, so treat the room as if its a water tank. Chaulk everything, seal everything, etc, which all contributes to not annoying your neighbor.

Then treat with foam and other products (bass traps etc) to make the room sound right.

Chaulking and using dense materials on the structure keeps the noise in, and the foam and other treatment dispurses or absorbed the sound energy inside hopefully for a reasonably flat frequency response so it sound good.

 

[MikeA]

Does it seem like a silly idea to make one giant room since I will most likely never have someone running the mixing board?

NO! The key thing to understand is that you need some room to let the sound develop in. (Once again, frederic is right on.) Go stand in your living room and scream. Then go into a closet or maybe your shower with the shower curtain closed and scream again. (Feel better yet? :>) Notice how the sound in the closet/shower sounds so small and constricted compared to the one in your living room? You need the volume of the room to let the sound exist. The room becomes an extension of the sound. I know that you are primarily interested in making it so that your neighbors can't hear you and it's fine to let that be the first thing you attack. But after you get the sound sealed in, the next thing you will want to do is improve the acoustics of the space you have. Work on that after you have made sure you won't get the cops called on you.

...how does the guitarist/singer hear the rest of the band?

If you are running down the whole song with the band then yes, headphones are the answer. If however, you've already got the basic tracks down (Drums, Bass, Keys, Vocal, Rythm Guit., etc.) and you want to add the lead guitar, you can put the amp in the small room and mic it. The guitarist can then listen to what has already been recorded along with his guitar that he is putting down through the control room monitors. Or if you want that bigger sound of the main room go ahead and put it in there and use the headphones again.
Do go out to John's site and study. He has lots of info there. He also has a forum on studio building there that just had a thread from a guy wanting to know how to construct walls that would prevent the passage of sound.
Hope this helps, and good luck.

 

[knightfly]

Jim, you said that your main concern is sound proofing so you don't have to talk to cops at 3am - I'd hate to see you spend time and money doing things that might actually make your isolation WORSE instead of better. Please take the time to describe the EXACT construction of your existing walls in the garage, outside to inside, layer by layer - also, what (if anything) has been done in front of the garage door - then, find a way into the attic and describe what you see there just as thoroughly (vents from outside soffits into attic, trusses with 1/2" sheet rock, blown-in insulation or paper-faced batts, etc - give the SIZE of any framing as well)

There is only ONE configuration of wall/ceiling (but with many choices of materials) that actually WORKS without wasting space/materials/time, and the sooner I find out what you already HAVE in place the sooner I can help you figure out what needs to happen next.

For an example of what I mean, go here

http://www.homer.com.au/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=86&start=0

Scroll down to the charts John posted on Mar01, then to my comments on Mar 17 -

Then, check out what you already have in place, and post back here.

Whatever you do, do NOT listen to any construction people who haven't built serious sound proof construction - they will almost ALWAYS get it wrong, costing you more for less isolation. And, that's the LAST thing you need when trying to isolate DRUMS from neighbors. In this case, even STC ratings don't always mean a lot.

Waiting to hear from you... Steve

 

[rsb]

just a note

We have several of those AC units in our church and they are very nice. I have also seen them inside of a network closet or 2.

Nice product and they look slick

Ryan

PS where did the Viking go?

 

[frederic]

Some other A/C suggestions...

Turbulence is reduced by having ducts with a large cross-sectional area. This allows the air velocity to be lower and any remaining turbulence will be lower in frequency.

Any airborne noise can be reduced by the incorporation of plenum chambers. A plenum is a large space through which the air must travel, lined with absorbent material. The air temporarily slows down and allows time for any sound it carries to be absorbed. The ducts are also lined, bearing in mind that the absorbent material must not give off particles (like mineral wool does), unless the air is being extracted. Baffles are generally not used as they increase turbulence.

Noise that would otherwise travel through the metal of the duct is reduced by suspending the ducts flexibly, and by having flexible connector sections every so often to absorb vibration.

Noise from the fan that would otherwise enter the structure of the building can be reduced by mounting the fan on a heavy plinth, itself resting on resilient pads. Obviously, a fan that is intrinsically quiet should be used.

Studio ventilation and air conditioning systems should be installed by contractors who have experience in doing this in a studio environment. Otherwise it is likely that the result will not be satisfactory.