Calibrating the output of a DAW to an Analog Desk

C

Cuzin B

New member
All,

I am currently using a Soundcraft Spirit M12 analog mixer...an M-Audio Delta 1010 for my audio interface and Nuendo 3.x as my DAW.

How do I properly calibrate/gain stage each item to ensure that I achieve consistent levels within Nuendo?

I have collected a ton of tips in the past few days but not one has made it abundantly clear on how to do this. Here's what I have tried so far:

1. Load up a representative 1K sine wave tone (at -20dBFS) within Nuendo
2. Set master output bus on Soundcraft M12 to unity (0db)
3. Ensure the stereo strip on the M12 that is receiving the Delta outs (1+2) is also set to untiy (0db)
4. Run the tone and then adjust the input trim knob on this stereo strip to ensure this tone makes the M12 master VU meters sit at exactly the 0db mark

However when I try to calibrate to these tones using the process above - I end up having to turn my input trims on the M12 way past where the actual "0" marks is stencilled on the board. I would think that Soundcraft would have some reason why they would choose a specific point on the knob as zero.

Subsquently - when I run any audio file out of Nuendo - I get an unbearably hot signal coming back out of the Delta due to the extreme input gain setting.

Am I missing an important step something here? Do I need to open up the Delta software panel and make adjustments there? Like lowering my outputs etc?

Totally confused and looking for help!

Cheers!

Cuzin B
 
How are you connected between the outputs of the M-Audio and the inputs of the Soundcraft? Make sure your connections are referenced to the same level (for example +4dbu line level output to +4dbu line level input)

Secondly, how are you monitoring? You may not be at this stage yet, if you're just calibrating to the meters on the Soundcraft, but don't forget about calibrating the levels of your monitors (if active) or power amp (if passive) You probably know this, but standards say you want your monitors putting out roughly 85 dB when everything is at unity. (I'm sure this level is debatable)

Also, you didn't mention anything about your levels in Nuendo, you want to make sure those are at Unity as well.

As a backwards way of looking at things, you could just set all meters at unity, play something, and then adjust your monitors until you're outputting 85 dB. Not very scientific or official, but it gives you a general idea.

I hope this helps.
 
RAK said:
How are you connected between the outputs of the M-Audio and the inputs of the Soundcraft? Make sure your connections are referenced to the same level (for example +4dbu line level output to +4dbu line level input).
Click to expand...

Rak,

I am at +4dbu out of the Delta into a +4dbu input in the Soundcraft.

RAK said:
Secondly, how are you monitoring? You may not be at this stage yet, if you're just calibrating to the meters on the Soundcraft, but don't forget about calibrating the levels of your monitors (if active) or power amp (if passive) You probably know this, but standards say you want your monitors putting out roughly 85 dB when everything is at unity. (I'm sure this level is debatable).
Click to expand...

Not really worried about the monitors (I am using Event 20/20 BAS BTW). I fully understand the whole 85db thing but for my usage - not sure if I really need that at this point.

What I am really looking for is to be seriously confident that when I plug something into the Soundcraft and adjust the input so the Soundcraft VU's are reading 0db - that signal when recorded into Nuendo - is becoming a clean concise track that peaks somewhere around -10 dbFS to -6 dBFS

RAK said:
Also, you didn't mention anything about your levels in Nuendo, you want to make sure those are at Unity as well.
Click to expand...

The Nuendo mixer master bus fader is at 0dBFS.

RAK said:
As a backwards way of looking at things, you could just set all meters at unity, play something, and then adjust your monitors until you're outputting 85 dB. Not very scientific or official, but it gives you a general idea.
Click to expand...

I guess that's another way of looking at it. I could just set everything at "unity" (the 0db markers provided on all the Soundcraft faders and pots), ensure that when tracking - I am peaking at -10 dbFS to -6 dBFS. But then what is point of all this? Or is it even necessary?

I guess I want to make sure that every signal that enters the recording chain does so at the optimum s/n ratio and level and that I am not inadvertantly overloading the board (or the Delta) or both by watching the wrong meters or have some half ass-ed levels going in that are going to sound like crap after going through A/D conversion into Nuendo.

Update when you can!

Cheers,

Cuzin B
 
Minion said:
misunderstood question...
Click to expand...

Minion,

I noticed you also have a Delta card? You done any calibration at all to ensure your gear is gain staged when the final signal hits Tracktion? Or are you just plugging in and letting it rip?

Cuzin B
 
It sounds like you delta is outputting -10 and the soundcraft is expecting +4. BTW I would probably go with -18dbfs for the calibration instead of -20dbfs. The headroom on the mixer isn't going to be any better than 18db.

If you get it set up like this and your mixes seem too loud coming out of Nuendo, they are. You are mixing too loud. Your recording levels were probably too loud as well.

You seem to have a grasp on calibration, you just have to get your head around the 3 different db scales that you are dealing with.
 
Do you have a way of controlling at inputs levels through the M-Audio software? Maybe that is part of the problem. Also, you don't really need to worry about the software faders, they will clip and it won't really matter. I would say the important thing is having an accurate representation on the soundcraft. I'll think more about it, but maybe try the backwards calibration.
 
I see what you are doing! You are calibrating the output of Nuendo. You need to just set recording levels, here is how you do it.

1. set the channel fader and output control on the mixer at unity
2. set the trim (gain) on the preamp so that the meters on the board read 0db
3. hit record.

For drums and other transient-rich instruments, you are better off watching the meters in nuendo and making sure the peaks stay around -6dbfs. VU meters are too slow (by design) to pick up on the transients.
 
So drums should generally stay around -6dBFS, or -18dBFS? I'm assuming -6 thing just applies for things with extreme transients.
 
RideTheCrash said:
So drums should generally stay around -6dBFS, or -18dBFS? I'm assuming -6 thing just applies for things with extreme transients.
Click to expand...
Yes, -6 should be about the limit for extreme transients. You can record them lower, but there is no need.
 
I think he wants to be calibrating the outputs. The reason to do this (at least how I think about it) is so that when you playback something and your output/playback faders are at Unity, you're putting out roughly 85 dB. With his setup, he's only dealing with playback, not inputs. Since your input levels would change depending on what your input source was, you can't really universally calibrate that.

VU meters (Volume Unit) are more representative of how the human ear hears (they take an average voltage), but they do not respond as well to transients, it's not that they don't respond at all.

Peak meters do not take an average, and respond much better/faster to transients.

I've not used Nuendo, but I know in Sonar you can choose whether the meters are representing VU or Peak.

I've generally found (ProTools, DP, Sonar) that the software faders don't really mean anything (meaning if you're tracking for example and a channel clips in the box, it's not a big deal) and you can always defer to your console. Now if all you've got is a computer and an interface without meters, then they become more relevant, since it's all you have to look at.
 
RAK said:
I think he wants to be calibrating the outputs.
Click to expand...

Rak, Farview and others

EXACTLY. With the help of this thread and much more reading and searching - I finally got my gear calibrated. It was Sound On Sound mag that pointed me in sort of the right direction with the help of Farview suggesting using an -18dBFS sine wave file instead of the -20dBFS file that was throwing me off.

Firstly - the Soundcraft M12 is an English (UK) device and the Sound On Sound article seemed to indicate that the UK has standardized on 0db = -18dBFS vs the US working with 0db = -20dBFS. So this morning - I fired up Wavelab and made myself a 60 second 1000K sine wave file at -18dBFS and ran that through the Delta 1010 into the M12. Low and behold - with the M12 master bus at exactly 0db and the input trim on the M12 channel strip handling the Delta 1010 sine output set to the stencilled "0" mark - my M12 VU meters read exactly 0db. Success!

Secondly - prior to this calibration - I was just twirling knobs here and there on the M12...cranking volumes on my POD or my digital piano...taking any ole input and slammin it into Nuendo with no care as to where the peaks, transients or anything was falling. I was clipping mixes....faders are all over the place....my mixes sounded lifeless and strained...and I frequently ran right out of headroom....which makes anything sound like crap and on and on. To me that was no way to properly capture a tracking session and then even attempt to do a decent mix of a mess like that.

Now - with my gear calibrated properly - I have the correct roadmap to follow when tracking (and especially when mixing!). I now know how much headroom is really available from the mixer to Nuendo (+18db). I now clearly know that if I plug in my strat in the M12 and start wailing away - when the output VU meters on the Soundcraft read 0db - I have attained the optimum operating state as far as my analog chain is concerned - and that signal, when recorded in Nuendo should be captured at or about -18dbFS - leaving me a healthy 18db of headroom for further annilation and mangling later.

Thanks for all your help!

Cuzin B
 
Definetly looks like you figured it out. Sound On Sound is a great resource for sure. I hope all of us here were able to provide some useful insight. Always nice when a problem gets neatly solved.

Congrats!
 
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