Buffers, buffers, buffers Please help

still4given

still4given

Got my ticket!
OK, a little info first.

I'm running N-track on my DAW.

P4 1.7
20gH 7200 HD
256 RAM
Win 98SE
Delta 1010


Here's my problem. I'm not sure if I had this problem before I updated N-track to the latest build (1445) but I can only record and playback 4 tracks without popping. 5 tracks and it start popping and clicking.

I tried recording silence in 10 tracks with audio on one, just to test it out.

As soon as I hit "Play" I get this window;

Buffers Too Big

"The playback buffering you have selected will probably use too much memory and may degrade the program and the system performance.

Try adjusting the buffers to consume less memory, for example decrease the "Preload buffers" and "Disk loading..." Parameters.

Are you sure you want to continue with the current buffering scheme?
YES NO

At this point CPU usage is showing at 8%, and I am using the "High Buffering [DEFAULT]" setting. I change the setting to "Very high buffering and then when I hit play I get this window;

Error

Too many recording buffers (currently 84: 14 buffers for each of the 6 input devices). The total of recording buffers for all input devices must not exceed 64. You can decrease the number of recording buffers in the Preferences/buffering dialog box.
OK

I click on OK and I get the "Buffers too big" window again.

I have gone through the entire configuration thing from the Tascam site. I also use Enditall before using it.

The delta is on it's own IRQ, (not sharing with anything else).

I'm using ASIO. I even tried unchecking all of the input devices but it doesn't help at all.

I hope someone here can help. I'm at the end of my knowledge.

Thanks, Terry
 
Using ASIO, you can't setup your buffers in n-Track, because n-Track uses the driver's ASIO buffers (all ASIO apps will work this way). Sure you can adjust them all you want, but it doesn't make any difference :) Now if you were using WDM, you would have two buffer settings to adjust, one in n-Track, and one in the delta control panel.

So, long story short, you just set your buffers in the delta control panel and restart n-Track. I use a 2048 sample buffer most of the time. If n-Track ever pops up that stupid "your playback buffers may be too large" message again, just click "yes". You should never see it again after that.

Slackmaster 2000
 
OK, that makes sense, but I'm still getting pops and clicks once I have 5+ tracks loaded in a song. Even if I have most of them muted. If I uncheck the box in Settings/Preferences/Options that reads "Read data from tracks even if muted" then the clicks and pops stop unless I have 5 or more tracks unmuted. Any ideas on what to do to get more tracks available?

Thanks, Terry
 
Make sure there aren't programs running the background. Do the old control/alt/del to list programs running and shut em down. I get pops from a video driver program that loads up and a couple other things unless I turn them off.
 
How many samples are you buffering in the m-audio control panel?
Click to expand...

I believe it's 2668. Whatever the highest setting is. I'm not at home right now so I can't check. I'll check it out when I get home if the exact number matters.



Make sure there aren't programs running the background. Do the old control/alt/del to list programs running and shut em down. I get pops from a video driver program that loads up and a couple other things unless I turn them off.
Click to expand...

That's what "Enditall" does. It shuts down everything except System tray and Explorer.

This has just got to be some setting that I have wrong. I'm really not sure what causes pops and clicks. My understanding was too low of a buffer setting. Is the data handled by the CPU, Hard drive, Memory, Virtual memory,......?

Still need help.

Thanks, Terry
 
Well if you're using a buffer that large and have chosen ASIO in n-Track, it's not a buffer issue.

Now we've entered the "why is my computer doing this?" zone, where there are zillions of answers to choose from, and only one is right for you :)

I'm going to toss this out there simply because it popped into my head immediately...I'm not recommending anything... n-Track HATES windows 98. I have heard of several people having decent luck on dedicated 98 Lite installations, but those people are few and far between. n-Track gets along *very* well with Windows 2000, however. Now the reason I'm not recommending anything is that people will often freak out and start this mad process of switching operating systems and hoping to get lucky....I think you should exhaust all other possibilities first...some of which are:

- Do you have the Delta on its own IRQ? With some hardware this isn't important, but m-Audio really insists upon it.

- Is your hard drive running in DMA mode? It's not automatic on 98.

- Have you updated all your drivers? If your motherboard uses a VIA chipset, have you installed the latest 4in1 drivers? Have you run Windows update lately?

Basically, if you can only get a couple tracks on a 1.7Ghz machine, it's not because you haven't "optimized" it...it's because there is something WRONG.

Slackmaster 2000
 
- Do you have the Delta on its own IRQ? With some hardware this isn't important, but m-Audio really insists upon it
Click to expand...

Yes

- Is your hard drive running in DMA mode? It's not automatic on 98.
Click to expand...

Yes

- Have you updated all your drivers? If your motherboard uses a VIA chipset, have you installed the latest 4in1 drivers? Have you run Windows update lately?
Click to expand...

Latest drivers, yes. 845 chipset.

I did have a degree of luck last night. You were right about the ASIO buffers. N-track adjusts to what is set in the ASIO panel. However, the other parameters in the buffers/options page change based on what setting you select, i.e. High buffering, Very high buffering, low buffering etc.

I found I had to lower the "Preload buffers" and the "Disk loading buffers"

I was able to record 12 tracks at once without any pops or clicks by selection 800 DMA buffers in the M-audio and then low buffering in N. Like I said I had to lower the other settings in the more options page.

The only thing is that I was unable to play back all of those tracks with out still having some clicks and pops. I was able to do it using MME for playback though. I was ablt to reduce the input devises using MME which I didn't seem to be able to in ASIO.


Anyway, I think I'm heading in the right direction.

I know I should upgrade my OS. I see you suggest 2000. Is that better/ worse than XP?

Thanks, Terry
 
I know I should upgrade my OS. I see you suggest 2000. Is that better/ worse than XP?

Heya,

As someone who's been there, I will tell you right now that W2K is miles above XP in terms of audio recording. XP is extremely unstable (never mind that both XP and W2k are both from the same NT kernel), and you have to download some patches to do 24 bit audio recording, whereas in W2K, with a few of the recommended tweaks, it works right out of the box.

I ended up having to build a dual boot system - W2K for audio, XP for other stuff. And all the hotfixs and auto updates MS felt compelled to install on my XP system eventually rendered it unusable, so, back I went to W2k for the otherstuff as well (still a dual boot machine = I have it split into recording studio for one boot and Everyday stuff for another...)

Hope this helps.
 
Terry,

Sitting here reading all this, reminds me of the problems I had when I got my Delta card. I can share what I did, for what it's worth.

Use the drivers from the install disk. Do not update to the ones on Midimans sight. (Per their own phone support person - He was right too)

Do use ASIO - According to Midiman, these drivers are best of class. FYI, I never was able to get WDM working.

Intel chipset. I tried Via, SIS, and 1 other I forget the name of right now, and nothing worked. Unstable results. It would seem ok at times, then the clicks and pops came back. Soon as I put in the mainboard with Intel chipset, I've not had one pop or crack, other than when I do stupid things with the mixer when doing playback. I heard the newer Via is fixed. Is it? It still uses the 4 in 1 driver to fool the computer into thinking it isn't sharing PCI irq's when it still is. Mixed results from users, but your 1010 is an intense card, you know?

Win2K - what the chipset didn't fix, going to Win2K did.

The tweaks help some, but it worked ok before I did them.

Keep the audio hard drive less than half full, and freshly defragged. ( I get lagtimes in my tracks if I let the drive get too much on it.
No clicks, but lagging.. Also high processor usage in N-track.


Good luck Terry.
 
Wow, good thing I read this. I had XP upgrade in my hand last night to buy it but got cold feet. so you're saying that XP is no good for audio, or at least wasn't at the time you last messed with it. Seems like I've heard a lot of guys lately singing the praises of XP using the WDM drivers. Tha was the direction I was going to go.

What's weird is that I can mix quite a few tracks using MME, but it is weird to record with. The recording VU's react very slowly. Not so with the playback VU's.

I really like the way ASIO works when recording, that is until I get to 5 tracks and then the clicking and popping starts. I think I'll give the drivers off of the disc a try. I never even tried them because of all of the posts I read about getting the latest drivers from the website. I installed those before I ever even tried out the Delta.

Also, you recommend Win2k. Can you even still buy that? I haven't seen anything but XP in the stores.

Thanks, and if you think of anything else, I'm all ears.

Blessings, Terry
 
Terry,

The jury is still out on XP for audio I think. I've read things both ways about it. Some people swear by it.

I am a network engineer for a local company, and I know our suppliers can still get W2K pro upgrades. Pretty sure you can get it, but not at the retail stores. You'll have to go to a computer store to order it most likely.

I wanted to suggest you take this issue to the Delta 1010 board. I found it invaluable when setting up mine.

http://pub136.ezboard.com/bdelta1010forum


Tom
 
win 98SE to XP PRO

I have just come out of hibernation for the last week :D .

I was running a crappy compaq PII 533 mhz...via chipset POS, as of a week ago, with win 98SE. I upgraded to an AMD XP1800, with 512 RAM, running XP PRO.

All I can say is that this thing functions far better than I could have possibly imagined. I am singing the praises of both the new machine AND the new operating system. The old puter couldn't handle my new soundcard (delta 66) or any intense tracking, no matter how much tweaking with buffers and the like. Even with a soundblaster card things were extremely limited.

To put other things into perspective, I have installed all kinds of crap on XP PRO at the same time as n-track, and have many programs running, such as photoshop, flash, messenger, browser(s), a freaking game running, and still I have yet to report one error, one crash, one pop or one glitch. With 16 channels at a time, so far.

I am of the opinion XP PRO is very stable.


PS I am using ASIO
 
Well I gave in and installed XP Home. Leave it to me to do too many things at once. I never even tried using XP as is. I printed out some tweaks for it and went ahead and did them. I had to download the latest XP drivers since the ones I had were for 98. I downloaded the Beta ones thinking they would have the most fixes.

Well I tried some recording and playback. Tried WDM and ASIO and both worked well. No pops or clicks up tp 10 tracks. I did have one problem though. I tried to add freeverb to the aux channel in N while the song is playing and got a error message that the program would be closed down. I click OK and it closes N. When I tried to restart N-tracks, the computer goes Blue screen and locks up. Say it is stopping everything to save any damage to my hardware.

I have to manually shut down the computer and then cold boot. Of course it says it has to check things out and states something about cross references or something which XP claims it fixed.

I tried the same thing again with the Aux.channel and Freeverb with the exact same results. Went through the whole reboot process again and then tried adding the Freeverb without the song running, and there was no problem. What's weird is I can add FX to the individual channel in flight without any problem.

Could be the beta drivers, i don't know. I will be looking into this and I'll let folks what I find.

Other than that, N seems to be running better in XP. I was also able to enable the on board sound card again with XP. I have nothing sharing IRQ's at all with XP.

Blessings, Terry
 
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