Blue Robbie Preamp....my thoughts

[goldencd]

I asked a couple questions about this pre a couple weeks ago. Needless to say not many people knew anything about them or had used one.

I took my brick back and picked this baby up. I use it in conjunction with a TLM 103..

The thing is DOPE! It is fairly transparent, but gives a ton of warmth to my vox. They sit perfect in the mix now. Anyway, I love this preamp, plus you can switch tubes for a differnt sound if you really wanna get into it. But straight out of the box I am extremely happy. I Paid about $800 for mine and feel like it was worth the extra $400 compared to the brick.

Just my thoughts in case anyone has any questions about the Robbie.

 

[goldencd]

I LIED

After using this for a week. I am returning it.

I think i bought into the hype of the tube preamp, because with my TLM103, this preamp had little effect on my vox.
not worth the money.
I am wondering if all Tube Pre's will be this dissapointing. I am using it for rap and singing. not much inst micing.
I really like to buy an Avalon but $2600 is a lot of dough. I guess i will have to try it out to figure out if it makes a noticable difference. The robbie did not.

 

[ozraves]

I don't have a TLM 103 but...

I'd give the mic pre a spin with more than one mic before returning it.

I used to only go to commercial recording studios to work. I never paid attention to the mics or the board or really much of anything except when it came time for mixdown.

One of my friends introduced me to Acid Pro. It was "tape composition" to me. I was in love.

My first mic pre was an Audio Buddy. I got it to test the waters. I then got an RNP and a Grace 101. I then moved up to a Great River MP-2NV and an A Designs MP-2. At each step of the progression I learned to get the max out of each mic pre.

Give yourself time to learn.

 

[chessrock]

I think you're expecting too much out of the mic pre.

They serve a basic function, and that is to bring a mic-level signal up to line level.

They're not going to make a voice sound any better. They're not going to make a poor mic / voice match any better. They won't compensate for poor room accoustics, singing in a booth, etc.

Other than very subtle shades, they don't generally "add anything" to a recorded sound, nor do they really help anything to sit much better in a mix. If you can afford it, it's better to have a good one, as a general rule. Most people won't dispute that. But in the overall scheme of things, they're very insignificant compared to mic matching, proper technique, room accoustics, and skillful processing. Consider them icing on a well-baked cake.

 

[SonicAlbert]

I LIED

After using this for a week. I am returning it.

I think i bought into the hype of the tube preamp, because with my TLM103, this preamp had little effect on my vox.
not worth the money.
I am wondering if all Tube Pre's will be this dissapointing. I am using it for rap and singing. not much inst micing.
I really like to buy an Avalon but $2600 is a lot of dough. I guess i will have to try it out to figure out if it makes a noticable difference. The robbie did not.

Quality tube gear is transparent, generally speaking. Some are designed to have a heavy tube tone, but some of the finest and cleanest gear is tube.

Sometimes people confuse the sound of iron with the sound of tube. So maybe what your ears are really looking for is iron. "Iron" being transformers. The suggestions about the Great River MP-2NV is a really good one. Or maybe check out Neve preamps.

Ozraves' combination of a MP-2NV and A-Designs MP-2 is a great plan to have. He covers a broad spectrum of tonal possibilities with only two preamps. Combine that with several different mics to choose from and you have a lot of possibilities from a minimum of gear.

I also agree with Chessrock that you are expecting too much from a mic pre. Additionally, the fact that you find the Robbie too clean actually tells me that it might be an excellent tube preamp.

 

[Warhead]

I think you're expecting too much out of the mic pre.

They serve a basic function, and that is to bring a mic-level signal up to line level.

They're not going to make a voice sound any better. They're not going to make a poor mic / voice match any better. They won't compensate for poor room accoustics, singing in a booth, etc.

Other than very subtle shades, they don't generally "add anything" to a recorded sound, nor do they really help anything to sit much better in a mix. If you can afford it, it's better to have a good one, as a general rule. Most people won't dispute that. But in the overall scheme of things, they're very insignificant compared to mic matching, proper technique, room accoustics, and skillful processing. Consider them icing on a well-baked cake.

I sell this stuff and even I get sick of seeing all the preamp threads. Mics mics mics...start with more of those...bake your cake....then ice it. I see guys posting about "what pre should I get next?" and they have 5 preamps and 4 mics and I want to vomit...

Yes they make a difference. Sometimes it's not so subtle. But build a mic collection first as those will always net you a larger difference than what pre you choose 99% of the time. Otherwise some misguided folks on a budget will be running around their studios wondering why they can't properly mic an 11 piece drum kit that just came in...try pointing your mic preamps at that.

War

Sorry...a little off topic.

 

[goldencd]

I sell this stuff and even I get sick of seeing all the preamp threads. Mics mics mics...start with more of those...bake your cake....then ice it. I see guys posting about "what pre should I get next?" and they have 5 preamps and 4 mics and I want to vomit...

Yes they make a difference. Sometimes it's not so subtle. But build a mic collection first as those will always net you a larger difference than what pre you choose 99% of the time. Otherwise some misguided folks on a budget will be running around their studios wondering why they can't properly mic an 11 piece drum kit that just came in...try pointing your mic preamps at that.

War

Sorry...a little off topic.

that shit was funny!

I guess i was expecting to hear some dramatic warmth added to my vox, like ohhh shit, my voice has never sounded this good...atleast from what I have been reading that is how people talk about pre's

Maybe I am let down by the fact the pre's in the digi002r give me that almost exactly the same sound as a 1000 dollar pre I was expecting to warm my vocals up.

definately expecting too much and would rather spend my grand on an ozonic and m powered protools for touring!
Also...just asking...How the hell do you learn to get all you can get out of a preamp that has 1 knob (gain up or down)?

 

[SonicAlbert]

Also...just asking...How the hell do you learn to get all you can get out of a preamp that has 1 knob (gain up or down)?

That's why recording is an art.

What mics are you matching to the preamp?

What mics are you matching to the preamp depending on what you are recording? i.e., voice, instruments, what instruments, etc.

Mic placement?

What's the room like where you are doing the recording?

What's the mic placement in the room?

If you think it is just volume up or volume down, you are dead wrong. Recording is truly an *art* that serious engineers spend their whole lives mastering. The problem with the home recording revolution is that there is a ton of gear but very few people who know how to use it. There's way more to it than buying gear and expecting it to do the magic for you.

I don't mean to be too harsh on you, but I think you are not quite coming from the right place in your thinking. However, in purchasing the Robbie you show an obvious interest in doing quality work, which is half the battle right there.

If you are touring, then spend as much time with the sound guys as possible, whether they tour with you or are the house guys. I do that whenever I play anywhere, and usually find them very willing to offer advice or just generally talk about gear and sound stuff. I do the same thing when I record in comercial studios. If there's time I check out the gear and ask questions.

I'd also like to respond to Warhead's advice. While I agree that having multiple mics available to choose from is very important, I think that having at least two channels of truly outstanding preamps is equally important, if not more so. The approach I've used, and one I recommend to you, is to buy a channel or two of class A preamps, and then build a mic collection. I personally would suggest the preamps be of the generally clean variety, and not be tube preamps. The preamp I own is the Grace 201. Others I would recommend for you to consider would be units like the Millennia HV-3B (or the new HV-3C), Great River MP-2NV or 1-NV, or John Hardy. To name a few.

The point of this approach being that quality preamps like this will make *any* mic sound better, and you'll be able to hear the character of any mic better as well. The whole "tube warmth" thing is bogus in my opinion. What's warmest is the best and most true representation of the sounds being recorded. Whether that be your voice, or a guitar or anything else really.

Hope some of this helps.

 

[Warhead]

I'd also like to respond to Warhead's advice. While I agree that having multiple mics available to choose from is very important, I think that having at least two channels of truly outstanding preamps is equally important, if not more so.

Alby, I totally agree. What I was saying is it just kills me when guys seem to have more pres than mics...and many people will just pop in after the guy says he has 4 mics and 5 preamps and give him more preamp advice. That makes my stomach turn.

2 channels, absolutely...I highly recommend that in preamps AND converters. 5 different flavors of preamp (which typically have subtle differences unlike an SM57 and a U87) vs not enough mics? Yuck.

I was kind of off topic as stated.

War

 

[chessrock]

The point of this approach being that quality preamps like this will make *any* mic sound better ...

I don't necessarily agree with this. Most mics will still sound like that mic, regardless of what it's plugged in to. It's the capsule that's responsible for at least 90% of the sound. Unless it's a ribbon, or an old, old mic with ultra fussy impedence demands.

... and you'll be able to hear the character of any mic better as well.

Yes. Assuming you have good monitors ... you know your monitors, and you're in a good monitoring environment.

The whole "tube warmth" thing is bogus in my opinion.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[goldencd]

THanks to everyone for thier opinion.
Albert, i mos def will talk to the sound guys on the road.

have to run....finish my thoughts later.

Peace

 

[SonicAlbert]

Most mics will still sound like that mic, regardless of what it's plugged in to. It's the capsule that's responsible for at least 90% of the sound. Unless it's a ribbon, or an old, old mic with ultra fussy impedence demands.

That's actually what I meant, but you said it better. The idea being that with a great preamp a mic will still sound like itself, but as good as it can possibly sound. Taken from the other viewpoint, we don't hear what a mic is really capable of when using it with lesser preamps (but that is what we very often get used to). Certainly the preamp does add some of its own color, but in general it's the mic that shines through most brightly.

Stated another way, a great preamp won't make a mic sound like a different mic, but will get the most out of that mic. This is something I have heard for myself many times when comparing the same mic through different preamps of varying quality.

 

[acorec]

I don't necessarily agree with this. Most mics will still sound like that mic, regardless of what it's plugged in to. It's the capsule that's responsible for at least 90% of the sound. Unless it's a ribbon, or an old, old mic with ultra fussy impedence demands.



Yes. Assuming you have good monitors ... you know your monitors, and you're in a good monitoring environment.



Couldn't agree more.

I only disagree with one fine point. My TLM103s definitely respond better with the better pre-amps because it is a high output mic. The cheaper pre-amps do not do it justice at all. I found the same thing with the GT 44 tube mic. The better the pre-amp the better the sound of this mic. These two are the only exceptions I have found though and I agree that for 99% of recording the mic and the source make all the difference in the world in sound. Too much is made of upgrading pre-amps when there are so many other considerations that go unnoticed. I usually take a small cassette recorder with me and record a short example to judge what the instruments/vocals sound like before I even pick up my first mic. The cassette will tell me if I will have source problems right up front.

 

[Middleman]

Same experience here with the TLM103. It lights up with more expensive preamps. Overall however, it is just not that versatile a mic and I ended up selling both of mine.

 

[goldencd]

Albert...

The art of recording, room, technique, all help and I agree that it is an art, one which I am always trying to learn more about. But The robbie still only has a gain control. All things being equal, it seems like a waste of money.

Other pre's seem to offer tonal options, for example the avalon dual channel pre, or am I getting them confused with channel strips?

Also, thanks for clarifing the whole "adds warmth" thing. I am glad that you think it is BS, because I couldn't hear it and I think I am fairly good at picking that type of thing out.

 

[chessrock]

My TLM103s definitely respond better with the better pre-amps because it is a high output mic. The cheaper pre-amps do not do it justice at all. I found the same thing with the GT 44 tube mic. The better the pre-amp the better the sound of this mic. These two are the only exceptions I have found though and I agree that for 99% of recording the mic and the source make all the difference in the world in sound.

Maybe not so much that a really hot mic needs a "good" preamp as much as it just needs a mic pre with ample headroom at the input. Granted, this does tend to be a feature with most "good" mic pres, but it's not mutually exclusive to a given price bracket. A Mackie mixer will handle very hot mics rather well, for example, while an M-audio might do a perfectly good job on quieter mics.

In the budget range, you're usually stuck with a choice of one or the other. But use a mic with a -10 db (or -15) pad, or better yet, carry around some Shure attenuators, and this doesn't necessarily have to even be an issue.

 

[xstatic]

I certainly agree that a good mic locker needs to be a priority. I also think that a lot of people exagerate how much a good preamp affects things. But to think as a mic preamp as JUST a gain stage is absolutely silly. Thats like saying converters are converters. Mic preamps can have a huge impact when used properly. Or maybe all the studio engineers out there are wrong and buy expensive stuff for no reason?

 

[chessrock]

Or maybe all the studio engineers out there are wrong and buy expensive stuff for no reason?

No, because to them, it's more than just gain. But this thread really isn't about them. This is about a rapper who records his own stuff (demos, I'm assuming?) with a TLM-103. And a Blue Robbie, for about a week.

 

[mattamatta]

The differences between preamps are a curious thing. In sound comparisons that I've heard, there's really only very subtle differences that come across on my phones and .... computer speakers.... monitors coming soon!!!!!!!)

But, I'll say that a friend got an RNP, and the difference between tracks recorded with that and his event ezbus (which sounds pretty much like my tascam us-428) is NIGHT AND DAY, to me. Compared to a solid dedicated pre, I'm sure the difference is much less. It's more of a "good vs somewhat inferior", rather than good vs a little better.

But I'll agree with a passion that it wont make up for poor sound source and room, and could even make that worse. I felt like I really heard the room more in the clips he did with the RNP. It was just like the RNP was three dimensional, breathing, living sound - and the stock pre's were flattened and "choked" sounding.

Judging on an absolute scale, I would have to say that the difference IS still subtle, but to me, it's absolutely night and day. A casual listener might not tell the difference, but I immediately heard the extra clarity and depth that will make a HUGE difference over a mix.

But the RNP vs other comparable pre's? I wouldn't expect as much of a difference, just as you all have said. Compared to the stock pre's I find the difference exciting, because it's exactly somnething I'm missing in my sound.

Just a story that I thought I'd share, so take it for what it's worth.

 

[goldencd]

No, because to them, it's more than just gain. But this thread really isn't about them. This is about a rapper who records his own stuff (demos, I'm assuming?) with a TLM-103. And a Blue Robbie, for about a week.

Close.

I am a rapper and I do record my own stuff, and it used to be for demo puposed...then I wouldfly to LA and record there.

Now I record final vox at my studio and it goes to either Tony Mazzerati or Dylan Dresdow to be mixed... and Big Bass Gardner at grundman mastering to be mastered.

So i am looking for real advice here. This is not a project studio whatever type post. I need my vox to be as close to perfect as possbile. I am trying to figure out if the right Pre will get me closer to great vocal sound or if i am wasting my time worrying about a pre and should sell my tlm and dump the extra grand into a better mic?

I know it is personal taste but knowledge is knowledge and I have come to respect the opinions of some on this site.