Biggest mixing revelation I've had in years: Turn off your graphs and curves!

[Chibi Nappa]

Here is the gist of this whole thing: In evolutionary terms, we need our eyes way more than we need our ears. Our brains are wired to favor our eyes. If we get conflicting information from our eyes and our ears, we believe our eyes.

I started out with this whole music thing in the late 90's. I have known DAWs and digital interfaces my whole career. For a few years they were all I knew. For all the time I spent in "digital land" I never realized how much harm I was doing myself with visual EQ curves and compressor graphs and gain reduction meters and etc etc.

Not that my mixes have been bad. Just that they could have been better. And faster.

It seems preposterous to think that I would not use an EQ setting because the hills on the curve looked wrong. But after reading a discussion on the topic (I'll link at the bottom) it turns out that is exactly what I was doing. I turned off the visual aids, mapped the EQ to my control knobs, set it where it sounded best, and then took a look at the curve when I was done. I swear I almost altered it the instant I saw it. It just looked so wrong. Way too extreme. But it didn't sound extreme. In fact it sounded great. And it was STILL hard to not change it after seeing it.

I have also been setting compressors visually by watching the gain reduction. My eyes tell me 20 db of reduction that never recovers past 6 db of reduction can't be right. My eyes tell me that 1 db of reduction that only hits every now and then can't possibly be enough to make a difference. But my eyes don't know a damn thing about sound. Pity my brain believes everything they say.

And it goes on and on with pitch, tempo, where notes fall on the beat...



The very first time I mapped EQ and dynamics to my control surface knobs and turned off the visuals, the whole mix came together better and quicker than ever before.

Read these discussions:
http://thewombforums.com/showthread.php?t=13010

http://thewombforums.com/showthread.php?t=10363


Then turn your computer screen off.

 

[Jim Lad]

Very well said.
I recently purchased a Korg D3200 and have been astounded at the number of users complaining about screen size.
Korg however, has remained undaunted at the numerous requests for a larger screen.
Why?
Because of all of the things you just said.
We really do need to block the screen and give it a listen.

 

[Bristol Posse]

The very first time I mapped EQ and dynamics to my control surface knobs and turned off the visuals, the whole mix came together better and quicker than ever before

+1 Billion to that

The EQ Graph, real time wave analyser etc is the worst thing to happen for a completely non visual medium but it tricks you to start looking for the "right" shape of EQ graph or an overall waveform that looks like another song that is similar to yours, so much so that some of the plugs can now try and force your output to duplicate that waveform and take any actual consideration of how the mix actually sounds out of the equation.

Complete bunk. Close your eyes and twiddle the knobs until you like how it sounds, who cares what shape it ends up.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Very well said.
I recently purchased a Korg D3200 and have been astounded at the number of users complaining about screen size.
Korg however, has remained undaunted at the numerous requests for a larger screen.
Why?
Because of all of the things you just said.
We really do need to block the screen and give it a listen.

That is kinda' funny... I have used a Roland 2480 for a long time now specifically because the screen is so small and the wave form editing is so clumsy. I've always had a suspicion that it wasn't good to see your music so I tried to steer clear of large monitors and real-time visual feedback. Turns out even that dinky LED screen was showing me enough to betray my hearing.

 

[RAMI]

Here is the gist of this whole thing: In evolutionary terms, we need our eyes way more than we need our ears. Our brains are wired to favor our eyes. If we get conflicting information from our eyes and our ears, we believe our eyes.

I started out with this whole music thing in the late 90's. I have known DAWs and digital interfaces my whole career. For a few years they were all I knew. For all the time I spent in "digital land" I never realized how much harm I was doing myself with visual EQ curves and compressor graphs and gain reduction meters and etc etc.

Not that my mixes have been bad. Just that they could have been better. And faster.

It seems preposterous to think that I would not use an EQ setting because the hills on the curve looked wrong. But after reading a discussion on the topic (I'll link at the bottom) it turns out that is exactly what I was doing. I turned off the visual aids, mapped the EQ to my control knobs, set it where it sounded best, and then took a look at the curve when I was done. I swear I almost altered it the instant I saw it. It just looked so wrong. Way too extreme. But it didn't sound extreme. In fact it sounded great. And it was STILL hard to not change it after seeing it.

I have also been setting compressors visually by watching the gain reduction. Who cares if it is hitting for 4 db or 30 db? My eyes tell me 20 db of reduction that never recovers past 6 db of reduction can't be right. My eyes tell me that 1 db of reduction that only hits every now and then can't possibly be enough to make a difference. But my eyes don't know a damn thing about sound. Pity my brain believes everything they say.

And it goes on and on with pitch, tempo, where notes fall on the beat...



The very first time I mapped EQ and dynamics to my control surface knobs and turned off the visuals, the whole mix came together better and quicker than ever before.

Read these discussions:
http://thewombforums.com/showthread.php?t=13010

http://thewombforums.com/showthread.php?t=10363


Then turn your computer screen off.

I'm actually surprised this is a revelation for you. And I don't mean that sarcastically or with any hostility. You usually give very good advice, and I've learned things from your posts. Because of that, I'm surprised this is something you recently discovered, unless I misunderstood your post.

 

[Chili]

Very cool thread. Thanks for starting it.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

I'm actually surprised this is a revelation for you. And I don't mean that sarcastically or with any hostility. You usually give very good advice, and I've learned things from your posts. Because of that, I'm surprised this is something you recently discovered, unless I misunderstood your post.

Like I said in my second post, I've always had an idea it was there. I've always tried to side with my ears. I just didn't know the extent of the "eye problem" on my mixes until I read those discussions and turned the visuals off. I honestly thought I was ignoring my eyes before.

Certainly explains why I always kill at live gigs with an analog desk and then take longer than expected to hit a good result in the digital studio.

 

[Terry Wetzel]

Like I said in my second post, I've always had an idea it was there. I've always tried to side with my ears. I just didn't know the extent of the "eye problem" on my mixes until I read those discussions and turned the visuals off. I honestly thought I was ignoring my eyes before.

Certainly explains why I always kill at live gigs with an analog desk and then take longer than expected to hit a good result in the digital studio.

ANALOG FOREVER!!! Alesis HD24,Mackie24/8,Masterlink ML9600. NO GRAPHS, WAVEFORMS,ETC. jUST MUSIC!

 

[miroslav]

Nothing wrong with visual aids...I just simply close my eyes or stare up, over the screens when I want to listen to the mix seriously.

Look...it's no different than with a console...you can SEE where the knobs are set.
I use the visuals to get my rough starting points...and then let the ears decide if it's right.

It's also good to get up at times and just move about the room or sit in different spots, or go into the next room even when you listen. That gives you some other perspectives and it is a more "natural" way to hear the mix..."from a distance"...'cuz who ever sits in front of their stereo anymore anyway!

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Nothing wrong with visual aids...I just simply close my eyes or stare up, over the screens when I want to listen to the mix seriously.

But that's the thing: There is no time when you don't want to be listening to the mix seriously. So that means the whole time you are staring off into space or closing your eyes. It takes brain power to actively divert your attention from something like a screen sitting right in your face. That brain power should be on mixing.

Look...it's no different than with a console...you can SEE where the knobs are set.

It is way different. The knobs are marked with tiny white lines usually obscured by the body of the knob itself. To see the settings, you have to go out of your way to lean over the top and squint at the little numbers printed around the edge. Under normal "not thinking about it" mode, the settings might as well be invisible. On a large clear graphed-out monitor "not thinking about it" mode has you absorbing the settings with your eyes.

I use the visuals to get my rough starting points...and then let the ears decide if it's right.

But you might as well let your nose set the starting points. Your eyes know nothing about this one particular topic...but your brain is wired through millions of years of evolution to think they do! You think it is a valid starting point but it is really totally random. Listen carefully enough and you get where you need to be with no damage done, but oodles of time is wasted because the starting point was random or misguided. [/QUOTE]

 

[miroslav]

Your eyes know nothing about this one particular topic...

Ahhh...I somewhat disagree with that.
Sure, audio is about sound, which is heard by your ears...BUT...our eyes play a big roll even with audio/music, and we do get use to using them a lot….and it’s NOT a bad thing.
IOW...when you place a mic, you do that using your eyes first, and then you check it with your ears. When you edit a wave, you use your eyes to place the cursor and make the cut, but then you check it with your ears.
Nothing wrong with stuff like that...having your eyes helps and speeds up many things in the studio.
The only thing to watch out for is where you stop using your ears to check what your eyes are doing.


Not sure what you mean by:

But that's the thing: There is no time when you don't want to be listening to the mix seriously. So that means the whole time you are staring off into space or closing your eyes. It takes brain power to actively divert your attention from something like a screen sitting right in your face. That brain power should be on mixing.

Takes time how?

It's just takes a bit of practice/discipline NOT to focus on the screen while listening.
I mean...you don't have to really close your eyes all the time.
Haven't you ever looked AT something but NOT focused on it?
You basically look "through" it…and stare off into nothing. Everyone can do that.
I just go with that approach when I'm editing...but when I really want to just listen I may actually close my eyes and kick back so I can totally concentrate on the sounds and as you say, apply all my brain power to the ears.
But when you just stare at the screens and not focus on them...your brain isn’t really processing visual information the same way as when you are actively focusing/following something with your eyes.

Not sure if DAWs are your only recording experience...so maybe it's all the years I've had before DAWs came along that makes it a bit easier for me to not pay attention to the screen when I want to focus on the sounds only.
Though I think anyone can easily learn to do that…to just stare off into space while listening.

You are right though...it's different when you have no visual distractions!

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Ahhh...I somewhat disagree with that.
Sure, audio is about sound, which is heard by your ears...BUT...our eyes play a big roll even with audio/music, and we do get use to using them a lot….and it’s NOT a bad thing.
IOW...when you place a mic, you do that using your eyes first, and then you check it with your ears. When you edit a wave, you use your eyes to place the cursor and make the cut, but then you check it with your ears.

I never place a mic with my eyes unless it is a live gig with no time for set up. I either physically put my ear where the mic will go or have an assistant move the mic while I listen elsewhere on the monitors and give directions. If I don't have an assistant I wear headphones and move it myself while I listen.

When I edit a wave I either do a live punch while the performer plays again or I tap a marker key as the song plays. I'm just not into that whole "zoom in and perform surgery" thing.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

It's just takes a bit of practice/discipline NOT to focus on the screen while listening.

But mixing is so intense, if I have to muster up discipline for ANYTHING other than the music the whole process slows way down.

Not sure if DAWs are your only recording experience...so maybe it's all the years I've had before DAWs came along that makes it a bit easier for me to not pay attention to the screen when I want to focus on the sounds only.

But that was part of my original point. I THOUGHT I was ignoring my eyes. I really did. When I took the visual data away, I was shocked at how much I was failing to ignore my eyes.

 

[RAMI]

I record and mix "out of the box", so I never get to watch my music. I only bring the final mix into the PC and faux-master in REAPER.

So I never get to see my music. Which might be a good thing. It's painful enough listening to it.

 

[jedblue]

So I never get to see my music. Which might be a good thing. It's painful enough listening to it.

Ha Rami, you an' me both.

 

[miroslav]

I don't really mix in my DAW either...maybe that's why the visual aspect isn't much of a distraction to me.


I mainly do just cut/paste edits, for which visuals are needed... and occasionally some spot-EQ on smaller pieces of audio.
I track to tape...and then I mixdown through a console with outboard processing. The DAW is just a playback deck at that point.

 

[dastrick]

Though I think anyone can easily learn to do that…to just stare off into space while listening.

I think this skill is really neccessary when you get married. Also the ability to stare at your spouse while NOT listening.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I think this skill is really neccessary when you get married. Also the ability to stare at your spouse while NOT listening.

And don't forget the ability to stare at curves without getting caught.

G.

 

[leddy]

ANALOG FOREVER!!! Alesis HD24,Mackie24/8,Masterlink ML9600. NO GRAPHS, WAVEFORMS,ETC. jUST MUSIC!

Having three conversions (AD to the HD24, DA to the Mackie, AD to the Masterlink) is not exactly "analog".

 

[gethypedmusic]

Im glad im learning this early