BIG up front guitars

C

Chris Jahn

New member
So I recorded and have been mixing 5 songs by a friends band as a "practice" session. In exchange for the free recording and my time, the band rented me two Universal Audio 610-2 mic pre's because I wanted to play around with some higher end gear and this was the perfect excuse. The results have been great. Through allot of care and a little bit of those amazing pre's I have created what I think is the best recording I have done to date.

That said, I am still not super happy with the guitars. This is BIG, LOUD, AGGRESSIVE, R-O-C-K. And as happy as I am with most of it, the guitars dont have that "feel" that I like. Its when they feel like your standing in front of the cabinet. They "sound" good, but no matter where I place them in the mix in terms of volume, they dont attack you the way I want.

Does anyone know that sound, or that feel Im talking about? The guitars in this band are a little dialed back, lots of distortion, but a more classic or super overdriven sound, not modern compressed metal sound. But they don't slap you in the face. Any "tricks" out there? Turning them up does not seem to do it. Its something else.
 
Chris Jahn said:
The guitars in this band are a little dialed back, lots of distortion, but a more classic or super overdriven sound, not modern compressed metal sound. But they don't slap you in the face. Any "tricks" out there? Turning them up does not seem to do it. Its something else.
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Read your own statement....the answer is there. :)

OK...here it is....
Take out some of the distortion and super overdriven sound...and they will come forward and slap you in the face.

Put up some clips so we can hear what you are hearing.



Oh...can I borrow the 610-2 pres for a few months (one will do)... ?
 
miroslav said:
Take out some of the distortion and super overdriven sound...and they will come forward and slap you in the face.
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Yeah basically that ^,

My favorite classic rock tone is The Who early 1970s. Townsend got that sound with virtually no overdrive, heavy strings, high output humbuckers and pushing the power tubes and speakers (not the pre-amp) by playing very hard. You can get that sound by using a good amp sim set the same way.
 
Chris Jahn said:
you can listen to one UNFINISHED song mix at the link below. I'm asking about guitars, but feel free to chime in on anything and everything else. Im kinda new at this. Be honest and brutal, but not mean:)


Burn the Poor by chrisjahn on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free
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Quite the funky tune you've got going on there! Yeah, it's the distortion that's making them sit back so far in the mix. Also, I personally thought the vocals were pretty quiet (couldn't make em out at all lol) but that's just me!
 
The secret to attack in any recording is down to the transient. I haven't heard your recording so I can't really make a definitive comment but the UA 610 preamps have to have the slowest transient response out of any preamp available of that level. They are also not known for their headroom and that is also why they're seldom used for recording loud and transient heavy sources like drums. I would only use one if I wanted a "smooth" sound with tamed transients.

Anyway, the majority of your problem probably does not come down to the preamp. The best help I can offer is to read this timeless, HILARIOUS tome and guide to recording distorted guitars from hell:

Slipperman's Recording Distorted Guitars From Hell

Hope that helps.

Cheers :)
 
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind for future projects, it's good advice. Couple questions, you are probably very right in saying that my problem is not the pre's I chose, I'm inexperienced and my issues are definatly not gear related at this point. But just out of curiosity, when recording attacky in your face music what are some good pre's? More specifically, what's a good affordable/portable one that a normal human can obtain, and what are the "fancy" ones I might want to rent if I have the oportunity?

Second, people record crazy distorted Mesa boogie modern guitars all the time in modern metal and hardcore, and they manage to get them in your face, what's the approach for that?

And lastly, since I'm stuck with what I have for this current project, what's an approach I can use to work with what I have "on tape"? Oh, and i have read that article before, its been a while, ill tead it again. Thanks
 
You can do distortion...but for most cases, the amount of distortion you are hearing in the room from the amp/cab will sound best when recorded/mixed with about 30% (to taste) less distortion....so you have to dial it back and trust it will work.

Other than that, to try and fix what you have, add some more edge with EQ and/or compressor to accentuate more of the attack tone, but go easy, as the comp can also make it even more diffused...then work the level balances of all the mix elements as needed.

AFA what pres to use for more...I won't try to give you specific names, but I would lean toward solid state with lots of headroom and very reactive to faster transients. IOW...I would go for a clean/transparent preamp...and then just get your tone/color at the guitar/amp...and mic...and not so much at the pre.
 
Chris Jahn said:
Second, people record crazy distorted Mesa boogie modern guitars all the time in modern metal and hardcore, and they manage to get them in your face, what's the approach for that?
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they're not using nearly as much distortion as you think.
Using too much gain is a super common cause of what you're describing in home recording.

Distortion also equals compression which robs transients ...... plus ... read interviews with the metal guys ...... virtually all of them will mention that they record surprisingly clean.
I'm not saying CLEAN clean of course. I'm just saying that you could probably dial back your gain some and it would be more in-your-face without any perceptible loss of distortion.
 
Also you need to hear what the mic is hearing. Sitting/standing with your amp several feet away, or in a different room alltogether, is gonna sound different than what a mic hears inches away from the speaker. Get down in there and make the amp sound right right at the source - the speaker, and then mic it. Chances are you're using way too much gain and treble. Or.......just play so ridiculously loud that it doesn't matter where you put the mic. That's what I do. :)
 
While Greg is right, I will caution you that if you close-mike a 4x12" with a cranked head, it doesn't matter if you should "hear what the mic is hearing" - DON'T put your ear right up to the grill in the center of a cone and hammer on your guitar.
 
Lt. Bob said:
they're not using nearly as much distortion as you think.

... read interviews with the metal guys ...... virtually all of them will mention that they record surprisingly clean.
.
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Good point, Eddie Van Halen always says " the sound starts at the fingers" most of the in your face sound with all instruments comes from the players technique and abilities.
 
BrentDomann said:
While Greg is right, I will caution you that if you close-mike a 4x12" with a cranked head, it doesn't matter if you should "hear what the mic is hearing" - DON'T put your ear right up to the grill in the center of a cone and hammer on your guitar.
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Lol. Right. My basic point was you get down at speaker level, straight on, and see how different the sound is from standing up and playing. You don't have to be right down on the grill.
 
Like the other posts mentioned. Try toning down the overdrive. As guitar player myself, when recording you have to sacrifice a bit of feel for tone. Also try concentrating on tweaking more of the lows, and low mids to get a full bodied, "throaty" tone in the guitar. It may have more push. It's pretty simple to get high end out of guitars/heads/cabs. The trick is to dial in the "belly" of the beast, low/low mids.
 
Too much distortion is a common problem when recording distorted guitars. I would try having the guitar amp (and FX pedals) in the monitoring room and the speaker cabinet in the recording room. This way you can dial in the tone you are looking for while hearing exactly what the recording sounds like.

I would say the amp and FX pedal settings are the most important part of recording, the mic and mic placement being second.

G
 
Chris Jahn said:
Second, people record crazy distorted Mesa boogie modern guitars all the time in modern metal and hardcore, and they manage to get them in your face, what's the approach for that?
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Less distortion and controlled high end. Oh and a Mesa Boogie. :) The distortion on Mesa Boogies are great. So if you get the chance to record one, try not to use any pedal distortions and use the amp distortions.

G
 
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