Big sound/Little amp

"Oh my god. Again, you're so off-base I'm not even gonna bother."

Yes Greg, headroom DOES matter. This is why power soaks and simple power control systems don't really work. If you drop the power of a 50watter to 5watts, ok it won't now take the windows out but the dynamics are gone.

There is only one power control system on the market AFAIK that addresses this problem and it leaves the peak, instant 45, 100, 200W (whichever) transient attack alone but controls the AVERAGE power output. This control system was some 10 years in gestation and hit the market about 6 years ago.

It is not perfect but the makers believe it to be the best power control to date. I am surprised nobody has tried to do something similar in a bolt on soak?

The old chestnut that some bands used 4 watt amps is always trotted out. Maybe they did but they then had the vast resources of EMI, RCA or similar to process the sound!

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
"Oh my god. Again, you're so off-base I'm not even gonna bother."

Yes Greg, headroom DOES matter. This is why power soaks and simple power control systems don't really work. If you drop the power of a 50watter to 5watts, ok it won't now take the windows out but the dynamics are gone.

There is only one power control system on the market AFAIK that addresses this problem and it leaves the peak, instant 45, 100, 200W (whichever) transient attack alone but controls the AVERAGE power output. This control system was some 10 years in gestation and hit the market about 6 years ago.

It is not perfect but the makers believe it to be the best power control to date. I am surprised nobody has tried to do something similar in a bolt on soak?
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Let me guess....London Power Scaling?
 
The OP mentioned having a Blue Voodoo cab, but was getting too much "air" or "room" in the sound, maybe it's the mic placement...I've never used a metal-grilled cab, so I don't know from experience, but IMO, the bigger cab should sound bigger, even if you're running a small amp through it...

I've went full-circle from using ampsims/modelers, to small amps (low-watt heads & 1x12 cabs), to a 50/100w head with a 4x12 cab, & to me, there is no substitute for a big amp, period. I've got kinda close with some of my small gear, but it's still not the same. It needs to be loud enough to push some air, & get the speakers working IMO...
 
ecc83 said:
Go wash your mouth out! No, this "dynamic" power control is ONLY available built into a certain brand of amplifier, of which I know you are not keen!

Dave.
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Haha, I see. If only that amp's company spent more time on tone and less time on volume tricks they'd be worth a damn. :D
 
Greg_L said:
Haha, I see. If only that amp's company spent more time on tone and less time on volume tricks they'd be worth a damn. :D
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Well they do of course spend hours and fekkin' hours voicing amplifier circuits but obviously the guy that signs them off for production has different ideas about "tone" to you Greg!

You are not alone, there is a guy here, amp tech and player in Scotland that is a leading light at Fretboard forum and he just does not like B's sound. Has big respect tho! He looks after the amps at a local rehearsal rooms and the buggers break EVERYTHING. Not however the two ID 60s they have had for over a year yet. Your Marshalls? Not so tough! Still, can't win 'em all.

The company HAS had a bash at a "big lil" amp. The HT-5. Bruce, technical director realized that all the low watt amps were single ended, cathode biased and so did not have the "progression" into power and distortion of a push-pull circuit. The Five is a push-pull, fixed biased triode. Hit the market about 6 years ago. I think they still can't build them fast enough!

But yes, even Steve, the demo guy and all round Company Man will admit, if pressed, that a snorting 50 watter and up is the only REAL way to go! Otherwise they would stop making them!

Dave.
 
I had an HT-5 for a little while, & I just couldn't bond with it....It was the combo version, & I even bought a 1x12 with a Greenback to use with it, but again, it wasn't terrible, I just couldn't bond with it...

Being fair though, I did run it through a Carvin 4x12 & it sounded much better. I'd like to try it out now that I have some decent speakers now, but it's long gone....
 
minerman said:
I had an HT-5 for a little while, & I just couldn't bond with it....It was the combo version, & I even bought a 1x12 with a Greenback to use with it, but again, it wasn't terrible, I just couldn't bond with it...

Being fair though, I did run it through a Carvin 4x12 & it sounded much better. I'd like to try it out now that I have some decent speakers now, but it's long gone....
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Some say......The original with the G10N-40 was better and I know a few people gig them with a 4x12!

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
Well they do of course spend hours and fekkin' hours voicing amplifier circuits but obviously the guy that signs them off for production has different ideas about "tone" to you Greg!

You are not alone, there is a guy here, amp tech and player in Scotland that is a leading light at Fretboard forum and he just does not like B's sound. Has big respect tho! He looks after the amps at a local rehearsal rooms and the buggers break EVERYTHING. Not however the two ID 60s they have had for over a year yet. Your Marshalls? Not so tough! Still, can't win 'em all.
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That's because people actually use the Marshalls. :D

The company HAS had a bash at a "big lil" amp. The HT-5. Bruce, technical director realized that all the low watt amps were single ended, cathode biased and so did not have the "progression" into power and distortion of a push-pull circuit. The Five is a push-pull, fixed biased triode. Hit the market about 6 years ago. I think they still can't build them fast enough!

But yes, even Steve, the demo guy and all round Company Man will admit, if pressed, that a snorting 50 watter and up is the only REAL way to go! Otherwise they would stop making them!

Dave.
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Blackstar has done a good job at hitting a price point that's friendly for the average Joe. They offer little and mid-size models that appeal to bedroom warriors. Subjectivity of sound aside, I don't think they sound terrible. I kind of like the big boys of the Blackstar line. I like the cabs. And I do see them for sale pretty much everywhere. Lots of Blackstar stuff on showroom floors in the US. You know where I don't see them? Out gigging. On the road. Doing shows. I've always found that odd. They're affordable and plentiful, yet I never see them at gigs. Ever. I see everything else. Vox, Orange, Marshall, Mesa, Fender, Splawn, Diezel, Bogner, small runs, one-off boutiques, even crappy Bugeras and Peaveys....but no Blackstar anywhere. I really don't know why. Maybe people don't trust them? Maybe people over here just don't like them? They don't have a bad reliability reputation as far as I know, but there has to be some reason no one's using them. I really don't know.
 
"That's because people actually use the Marshalls."
Heh! Still they shouldn't break! Don't matter HOW good an amp sounds if it doesn't make it thru the night!

Your gig observations are interesting Greg. The Big Four MVPM are huge presence over here as well (I just see what is on Jools Holland and such and recently Glazo) but I do see the odd Blackstar logo from time to time. Paul Weller has two A30 combos (went down the Smoke to do the mods in the first year of those. No, I didn't see him!)

The amps have a VERY enviable reputation for reliability. In fact if we could get rid of the valves we would be looking at zero defects!

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
In fact if we could get rid of the valves we would be looking at zero defects!
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Lol. That's the only feather in Blackstar's cap - tubes!

A broken Marshall sounds better than a working Blackstar.

I could go all day with this! :D
 
ecc83 said:
In fact if we could get rid of the valves we would be looking at zero defects
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I'll NEVER get rid of my valves.

AC DC got it right with their album title "High Voltage. That's a crucial element of rock and roll. ..High Voltage.

Tube amps produce that, and thats the sound.
:-)
 
Holy hell you guys are talking so far over my head. I just wanted to crank an amp, throw up some faders, and have a fairly respectable sound. Maybe a shelf here or there after the fact.

@minerman: as far as the Blue Voodoo goes, the metal grill prevents me from getting the mic as close to the speaker as I would like, hence the"too much room." It's not a bad sound, but not really what I'm going for. Maybe I could gate it? I dunno?

I'm prolly just gonna try the cab again anyway. I think I read somewhere that the older BVs had either Celestions or the Crate knockoffs. Whichever, they sound good to me
 
ecc83 said:
You could go on forever with a Blackstar!
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If you wanna endorse me, I'll play a Blackstar. Send me a few 50 and 100 watters. None of that ISF garbage. All tube. Actually, just build me an exact Marshall JMP-era Super Lead clone with Blackstar badges. No wait, just send me the logos and I'll put them on my Marshalls. :)
 
RFR said:
I'll NEVER get rid of my valves.

AC DC got it right with their album title "High Voltage. That's a crucial element of rock and roll. ..High Voltage.

Tube amps produce that, and thats the sound.
:-)
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And yet! One of the most famous and well respected "rock" amps has a bog standard transistor in its EQ section. Very many amps are more "solid state" than many people know or care to believe!

It's what you DO with "it" that counts.

Dave.
 
theDICKENS said:
Holy hell you guys are talking so far over my head. I just wanted to crank an amp, throw up some faders, and have a fairly respectable sound. Maybe a shelf here or there after the fact.

@minerman: as far as the Blue Voodoo goes, the metal grill prevents me from getting the mic as close to the speaker as I would like, hence the"too much room." It's not a bad sound, but not really what I'm going for. Maybe I could gate it? I dunno?

I'm prolly just gonna try the cab again anyway. I think I read somewhere that the older BVs had either Celestions or the Crate knockoffs. Whichever, they sound good to me
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I don't know how the grille is on that cab, but on my 4x12 I can get right up next to the grille & still get a good sound (without touching it with the mic...)....Maybe try turning the knob that says "volume" up so the mic will pick up more of the speaker than the room...

Some of the older Crate cabs did have Celestions in 'em, V30's I think...

You gotta do what you gotta do in order to get a sound you're happpy with dude, I tried all kinds of shit before I finally bit the bullet & got a couple big amps with a 4x12....Since I did that I can usually get sounds I'm pretty happy with, YMMV.....
 
"Turn there knob marked volume."

I got a good chuckle at that. I had to back the mic gain to almost zero and take the picture off the wall(my hallway is my recording room) just to get a usable signal.

The volume isn't a problem, but mic distance is. The metal grille keeps me too far away to reach my "sweet spot."

I'm just gonna gate it, or edit it out afterwards(the "room").

Thanks for the ideas, anyway. Once I get something I'm not embarrassed of, I'll post some a/b comparisons
 
Take off the grill. A metal grill on a cab has got to do weird stuff to the sound anyway.
 
Unless it's loose and rattling around, the metal grill on a cab is not a problem. How much closer do you need to get the mic? You don't need to bump it right up to the speaker. "Grill distance" is more than close enough to negate the room.

What kind of mic are you using?
 
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