Basic questions about mic preamps

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BigsbyBoyUK

New member
Please excuse a newbie jumping in with a long-winded request for help - I've been visiting the site for a while and will help others if and when I can now that I have registered.

I use a simple setup: cheap-ish but good condensor mic into old Behringer mixer into a TASCAM eight-track reel-to-reel, with a Behringer compressor and Zoom effects unit just to add a little reverb. That's it: no computers or digital recorders and that's the way it will be for a while longer at least. Generally I'm happy with the demos of my songs that I achieve with this gear. (You can hear four songs recorded this way at my MySpace page - add 'RichardGroom' after the usual MySpace address.)

However I have just invested in a pair or Rode NT5's to improve the acoustic guitar sound in particular - the main sound in my recordings - and that has helped but I think that the mic pre's on the mixer are now my weakest link.

So I intend getting a better mice pre, two-channel to record my guitar in stereo - maybe an M-Audio DMP3 to begin with, which I presume will be a step up from the mixer pre's.

So my big questions:

1. Is it worth spending a little (about 100 GP pounds / 200 US dollars) on the M-Audio DMP3, ie will I really notice an improvement from the mixer pre's.

2. Will any benefit I get from the M-Audio be wiped out because obviously I will need to mix back through the Behringer, using those nasty(?) Behringer pre's again.

Sorry if these seem dumb questions but I want to try to focus my next purchase on something that will really help me hear an improvement in the next batch of demos I'm working on.

I really appreciate any help I get.
 
The DMP3 is nice for the money, never used a behringer mixer though so couldn't say if it's much better. Usually there's not much point spending small amounts on 'upgrades' but there are exceptions and I think the DMP3 is one of them.

If you're going through the mixer from the outputs of the mic pre you should go into the line inputs. You probably won't be bypassing the mic pres as such, it depends how your mixer inputs are designed but at least the mic pre on the mixer won't be adding any gain. You might be able to bypass them properly using inserts, again it depends how the thing is wired.

Your stuff sounds nice.
 
BigsbyBoyUK said:
However I have just invested in a pair or Rode NT5's to improve the acoustic guitar sound in particular - the main sound in my recordings - and that has helped but I think that the mic pre's on the mixer are now my weakest link.

So I intend getting a better mice pre, two-channel to record my guitar in stereo - maybe an M-Audio DMP3 to begin with, which I presume will be a step up from the mixer pre's.
Click to expand...

There's a thought you had that I want to point out and caution you against: "maybe an M-Audio DMP3 to begin with". This is the beginning of going down the wrong path, a journey of incremental upgrades. You'll spend money over and over taking tiny steps up the gear quality ladder.

I personally do not believe in incremental upgrades, as they are usually just side-grades. For any upgrade to be worth the money, it has to be large--large enough for it to be plainly obvious an improvement has been made.

So in your case, my feeling is that since you are still going to be mixing through the Behringer anyway, to use those preamps for the time being until you can save up the cash for some really finer preamps.

The new mics will no doubt make an improvement right there. Use them for a while with your current setup, and then make a real upgrade at a later date once you know the mics well.

And then maybe upgrade out of that Behringer.
 
I have owned both the Behringer mixer and the M-Audio DMP-3. IMO the DMP-3 is a significant upgrade. The Behringer produces a scooped sound that makes the bass boxy and the highs shrill/strident. It does not like to be pushed. The DMP-3, based on the same BB INA-163 chip as the Grace 101, the Sytek, and the Rane MS1-B (I think) will let the mic sound like the mic. It is transparent with lots of clean gain.

I think it is a very worthwhile upgrade until you can afford a true high-end preamp.
 
Kevin Deschwazi said:
Usually there's not much point spending small amounts on 'upgrades' but there are exceptions and I think the DMP3 is one of them.

If you're going through the mixer from the outputs of the mic pre you should go into the line inputs. You probably won't be bypassing the mic pres as such, it depends how your mixer inputs are designed but at least the mic pre on the mixer won't be adding any gain. You might be able to bypass them properly using inserts, again it depends how the thing is wired.
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The DMP3 has a fine reputation as being very neutral. It will also enable you to add lots of noiseless gain, whereas I'm guessing the Behringer preamps may be hissy at higher settings.

I wonder if you can try a DMP3 for a day, rubberband the two Rodes together, plug one Rode into the DMP3, and the other Rode into the Behringer... Play your guitar and record each on separate tracks and compare... Look for quiet and clarity.
 
Thanks for the input guys.

Kevin, that's good advice on the recording stage. I think I can in fact record straight from a preamp into my eight track for most of what I'll be doing. I was really asking about mixing itself, ie will going back through the Behringer when mixing from the eight-track through to the CD recorder I use on mixing negate any improvement that a better preamp at recording will give me? I guess the answer is that at least by then I will be dealing with line levels so won't need to push the gains on the Behringer channels as high, so its preamps will come into play less? (Thanks for the positive feedback about my recordings by the way!)

In fcat, as I plan on spending a month or two recording my new songs I may in any case be able to save for a Mackie mixer for mixing when the time comes. The Behringer can then be relegated to the live PA I am putting together.

SonicAlbert, you are of course right about the danger of expecting much from small upgrades. I get the impression though that I would need to spend about four times the cost of the DMP3 to get a much better preamp and in truth I might never be able to justify that. I am using the new mics and getting better with them but the sound is still a bit boxy (as tdukex mentions) and I do want to try to get even a small improvement before spending hours of time on new recordings. If you can suggest a two-channel preamp for maybe twice the cost of the DMP3 worth the extra cost that would be very helpful as I could perhaps stretch that far.

Billisa, that's a great suggestion for an A/B test. I might not be able to do that with a DMP3 but a couple of friends have similar price-band preamps that I could borrow.
 
Well, you are correct about the amount of money you would have to spend. I don't think you hit the next big upgrade level until you get to about $500 for two channels. Then you are looking at units like the FMR RNP and the Aphex 207D. The next level after that is around $700-800 for two channels, which includes the Apogee Mini-MP, and DAV BG-1 for example.

The ART MPA Gold is $300, so I think that would be one of the few I'd look at in that price range. The other unit to consider would be a couple Studio Projects VTB-1's.

But really you might be better off just going with your original plan. And then later perhaps go for a bigger upgrade.

I do think it's a great idea to ditch that Behringer and go for a better mixer. As far as the preamps, if you go for a Mackie (a new Mackie) the preamps will be better than the Behringer right there. So if you are planning on a new mixer, maybe do that first and see how you like the preamps in it before spending more for an outboard preamp box.
 
tdukex said:
I have owned both the Behringer mixer and the M-Audio DMP-3. IMO the DMP-3 is a significant upgrade. The Behringer produces a scooped sound that makes the bass boxy and the highs shrill/strident. It does not like to be pushed. The DMP-3, based on the same BB INA-163 chip as the Grace 101, the Sytek, and the Rane MS1-B (I think) will let the mic sound like the mic. It is transparent with lots of clean gain.

I think it is a very worthwhile upgrade until you can afford a true high-end preamp.
Click to expand...

one of my first posts to the forum was on this same subject, the cheap-mixer made all my mics sound the same in a way, then someone said try the preamp....try a DMP3...and I could hear a much more obvious difference between microphones.

it was a really "wow!" change.....and amazing the mixer could make so many mics sound so similar?

the final straw was when someone said go try a SM81 (which was some standard pro mic) and I still couldn't hear the big difference so I went back to the SM57. I thought everyone was bullshit, on mics because they all sounded kind of the same through my mixer!:p

but with a decent pre amp.....big ol wow!...it was like sex for the 4th time, you kind of know what your doing by then, a nice "upgrade"...really start enjoying it.:D
 
BigsbyBoyUK said:
Billisa, that's a great suggestion for an A/B test. I might not be able to do that with a DMP3 but a couple of friends have similar price-band preamps that I could borrow.
Click to expand...

I have a pair of Studio Projets VTB1's, and they are able to supply lots of gain with no noise. I guess there are a few relatively inexpensive pre's worth trying, but ONLY a few. I think it's harder to find good inexpensive gear then $1,000. preamps. In the price range, the VTB1 and the DMP3 are the only ones that people seem to consistently like. The DMP3 edges out the VTB1 in many people's views, plus you get two channels in one preamp.

I don't know if this has been said, but I think that when you need higher gain settings, you may notice the DMP3 or VTB1 really start to leave the built-in mixer pres behind...
 
I had a Behringer UB2442fx which I have to say I was surprised for the money. I got some pretty reasonable results with it.
I recently got a DMP3 and have to say that I love this pre. I tried the SPL Goldmike 9844, Focusrite Trakmaster pro and Studio Projects VTB1 and the DMP3 was my favorite. The others were very good also but the DMP3 gave me the sound that I was after.
 
First, I've never heard anyone say that they wasted their money on an incremental upgrade to the DMP3. At the price they sell for, it's such a small detour, and practically everyone ends up keeping them, and using them, even after they buy that bigger upgrade. The concept is sound, save up longer and get something good...... but the DMP3 is in most cases a smart interim purchase as it gives you a very nice, very clean, and very portable stereo pair of pres that will do things a thousand dollar single channel pre can't.

Now bigsby, in your case I think the first thing I'd do is replace the mixer. You need a mixer with nice preamps AND sweet sounding EQ. With everyone mixing in the box these days, I would think there should be some good stuff on the used market, but new and on a budget I'd probably be thinking Soundcraft.
 
Well there's almost a universal thumbs up for the DMP3 so I'll probably get one. I can see it having uses beyond my main studio set up, including for some remote recording and for a mini-PA I use for tiny venues.

Actually I have just bought a nearly-new Yamaha mixer (part of a job lot of stuff too good to turn down) so I'll get a chance to see if that's an improvement over the much older Behringer when I pick it up this weekend.

I'm so glad I raised this here - really useful replies. I'll report back on A/B testing when the gear is in place.
 
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