balancing budget between mic/preamp...

the dairy giant

New member
I was about to get maybe an ADK Vienna... and maybe an EH preamp, but my budget disappeared... well shrunk anyway..

So I was wondering what would be better??? a more expensive mic (say the ADK, or a bit cheaper maybe an AT3035...) and keep using my very ordinary Behringer mixer for preamps.
Or alternatively something a lot cheaper like the AT2020 (which seems to get some very good reviews) along with a better preamp like the EH unit...

this would be for vocals and acoustic guitar.

so buy the 'best' mic I can afford and stick with cheapo mixer preamps, or spread the budget out between mic and preamp...any thoughts???
:confused:
 
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Dairy Giant, please understand that no offense is intended toward you. But, the fact that a question like this is even being asked indicates to me just how screwed up the priorities are of many home recordists. In particular, there is WAY, WAY too much attention being given to the supposed "need" for outboard preamps. Can an outboard preamp improve your recorded sound? Absolutely. But should you be worrying about that, when you're just trying to make some demo-quality recordings in your home studio? Definitely not. ESPECIALLY at the budget range that you're talking about. Dude, you're talking about microphones in the $100-300 range (US dollars). Both the AT2020 and the ADK Vienna are fine mics that give way more value than we have any reason to expect at their prospective price points. However, let's keep in mind that we are still talking about very, very inexpensive microphones here. The thought that somebody might take a mic budget of less than $300 US and consider cutting it down even FURTHER, to allow for the purchase of a mic pre (which would, necessarily, be a very cheap one at that budget level) is just plain silly.

Here is how I suggest that you proceed: When you've got a budget of just a few hundred dollars, spend it ALL on getting the best microphone you can get. When you get ANOTHER few hundred dollars to spend, spend all of THAT money getting another quality mic - the best you can afford. And so on. As you build up your mic collection, don't forget that you need to ALSO budget some of your money for quality monitoring and room treatment. AFTER you've taken care of all the problems with the sound quality of your recording and monitoring rooms AND you have assembled a nice collection of processors and mics (let's say at least one or two dozen quality mics), then you need to spend some time learning to use the equipment that you have. Figure about a year or so for this.

Now, at this point (but definitely not before) you MIGHT need to upgrade your mic pres. But then again, you might not. You will need to figure out what is holding you back from making better recordings. It might be that your mic pres are not up to snuff. More likely, there is something else, such as the quality of your converters or your studio monitors that is keeping you from making the best recordings you can make. Remember that you're just making home demos; you don't need to make recordings that compete with the best of the big label releases. Also keep in mind that, even those inexpensive stand alone recorders by Boss and Yamaha are capable of making very, very good quality recordings - certainly good enough for the purposes for which you are using them. Even cheap preamps are adequate for this purpose. If you can't get to that level of quality, then the problem is probably in lack of experience with your gear, or any one of many, many other problems, besides your mic pres.

I see this sort of thing all the time on this board. People with only a half dozen cheap microphones are out there shopping for a new mic preamp. It's totally ridiculous! This notion that people who are at the most basic, beginner level of recording need to worry about buying quality microphone preamps is just plain goofy. At that level, you are better off spending your money on just about ANYTHING else, and taking the time to learn to use the equipment that you have. Get good mics. Get good monitors. Tune the sound of your room properly. Get lots of experience with your gear. And then, once you have developed a good understanding of recording techniques, and have learned to hear where the problems are in your recordings, you will KNOW when you need new mic pres.

Brad
 
Thanks for the considered reply...It's only through reading perhaps silly questions such as mine that I started thinking about preamps at all, some people put a lot of emphasis on them...

So i will take it as a given that in your opinion, at the dollar level I'm talking about, a different preamp is not going offer me better sound, all the other important things you talked about being equal.

There are a few assumptions there though that are incorrect, I don't really see myself making demos. I'm making music the best i can given skills/talent/budget... I have no misapprehesions about making it into a fully equipped studio. I make music (which the majority of people I play to think sounds like like a 'REAL' cd!!) 'cause I want to/need to. From the feedback I've had from other forums about my music it sounds pretty good production-wise, I think good enough for the music to be heard without the production blocking the intent.

And due to the internet I already have a small group of fans who enjoy listening my music on their iPods (some have even said they'd PAY for it!) though when I say small, I'm counting on the fingers of one hand there... Maybe, with websites such as Magnatune etc. I might make enough off my music to buy a nice meal out someday... or at least coffee. So I really need to find that point of balancing expense and quality, and to be realistic about the self indulgence of blowing hundreds/thousands of $$$$ on music equipment...

The paradigm of 'cheap demo > record label > contract > studio > commercial release' (or however it works) is something i don't think will ever fit me.

If you'd like to have a listen, here is a song of mine... needs a few things fixing though.
 
Nice recording!

Yes of course, I didn't mean to imply by the word "home demos" that you shouldn't try to make your recordings sound CD quality. I only meant to suggest that they're not going to sound the same as recordings made in a professional studio with a broad selection of quality mics, outboard gear, dedicated isolation rooms, etc... Once again, no offense was intended. Indeed, I listened to the track that you provided, and I thought that your material sounds really, really good. Very impressive work! :)

The only point that I was trying to make is that many people seem to jump the gun and start shopping for mic preamps, when there are many, many other things that require attention FIRST. These include making sure your room sounds good, you have quality monitoring, decent signal processing and converters, and a comprehensive mic locker. Only after these other matters have been addressed, should somebody be looking at the quality of their mic preamps. The fact is that almost all of the preamps that are provided with the recording interface that people use to record with are already of sufficient quality to get the job done. It is rarely the quality of the mic preamps that is holding somebody back.

In fact, I would say that your recording is an example of the fact that you can get a very strong product using the very inexpensive preamps that people are recording with on entry-level equipment. I still recommend that you work on broadening the mic locker, making the room sound as good as possible, and expanding your collection of signal processing gear. (I assume your monitoring system is already OK or the finished product wouldn't sound so good.) I don't know what your recording setup is, but most people will, at some point, want to upgrade the recording interface. If you're working with regular ProTools, for example, you'll eventually want to move up to the high resolution format with better converters. At that point, you will get better preamps along with the new interface.

By all means, keep up the good work!

Brad
 
SRR said:
I am sure Brad knows a whole lot more then me on the subject of pres, but I will say my Studio Projects VTB-1 was a good step up from my behringer mixer and don't regret the purchase what so ever.
I would agree there, but as long as you aren't using the preamps that are built into your sound card then he is right that the proper order of priorities should be mic, then room, then maybe preamp. Also during all this the real thing to be developing is your technical and artistic skill. Sometimes folks here remind me of weekend golfers who think that all it will take is the right new club and they will be playing like Tiger Woods.
 
I agree that quality mics are much more important than quality preamps. However, I believe that the time to get a quality preamp is when you have 4 or 5 quality mics, since you can spend $500-$1000 and see an improvement with all of your microphones.

It's a tricky balance, deciding how to spend your money.
 
Thanks for the positive comments brad... my monitors were in fact the first thing outside of software that I spent any money on... I did my research and based also on what i could get locally I got some Alesis M1 active Mk2's. Not the best in the world, but quite usable from the reviews I read... I use Logic, and have an M-Audio Audiophile USB interface.

Lemontree, The mic i am using is an Audio Technica ATM41a, I have 2 of these from about 25 years ago when we bought them for live work, there were sold as being like an SM58 but cheaper, SM58s were very expensive here at that time. They are dynamic stage mics... I have no experience of using the real thing so not sure how they compare. All I know is that no-one has ever heard of them!! I think they are still in production though. My budget was about US$300, to which I have to add shipping, exchange rate and sales tax (i think). but less is going to be easier as the money I had earmarked for it has had to be diverted elsewhere...
 
Well for $300 and a step up from the ATs you have, there isn't a stand alone pre amp you could buy that wouldn't be a step upwards from your Behri mixer pres.

What you want for acoustic is two small diaphram condensors and a dual channel pre. That's not in your budget so bare with me. The first large diaphram condensor I bought was a Studio Projects B1, I married that with an M-Audio Tampa mic pre and had some really good results with them on vocal and acoustic. The Tampa is probably out of your range if you need a mic too so I'd go for the SP B1 and the VTB1 mic pre as a package. I know in the UK they sell for £130 for the mic and pre plus shockmount and cables if you shop around so that's like $250. If your budget can stretch go for the C1 instead of the B1, or a B3 will give you different mic patterns.

Before you go throwing cash around take a listen HERE to the songs STAR and PENNY. Both were recorded with the SP B1 through a Tampa. It's a bummer about your budget. I hope you find what you are looking for. All the best on your quest,

Alec
 
I like that recording, there's some really interesting sounds in there. I wonder if whether a less spacious and reverberant ambience might expose the weaknesses in the signal chain? If you were going for a lot of natural drums, loads of guitars layered and a strident vocal, you might be less happy with the mics, pres and converters ... but you're not, so why make a wholesale change?? :)

I also think there's a lot of good informed and considered advice in this thread that is worth listening to. Your first condenser, whatever it is, will feel and sound a lot different to dynamics, and will initially feel like a massive step up in quality. Then you'll hear problems that your dynamics were masking before (like bad room acoustics) and you'll begin to iron those out on the cheap and on the fly, and before you know it, your recordings are in a whole new league compared to where they were!!!


Certainly that's the theory at least .......... ;)

Nik
 
Lemontree, I really like the song 'Penny', very nice, recording sounds good too.

Not sure why, but I find the tone quality of the voice a lot more appealing in that song than in the other song... I wonder what the difference is.

If i can just make a little constructive criticism... I know its not the forum for that, and you weren't asking for it, but the guitars are not quite in tune, which for me becomes a thing that I can't stop noticing. But the recording of them sounds pretty nice to me!

Noisedude, I think a more exposed recording would definitely show up some weaknesses, seeing the sounds I record are usually a bit buried maybe i don't need to bother at all!! Though I am looking towards some simplification in song structure and production... so I think I do need at least one nice vocal/acoustic mic.
 
the dairy giant said:
Lemontree,If i can just make a little constructive criticism... I know its not the forum for that, and you weren't asking for it, but the guitars are not quite in tune, which for me becomes a thing that I can't stop noticing. But the recording of them sounds pretty nice to me!

You know I've tried and tried but I just can't get a mic or a preamp to tune a guitar ;)

Just trying to let you hear the detail in a condensor as oposed to a dynamic
 
Ever hear that a chain is only as strong as your weakest link? Think of recording like this.

Anything you upgrade will definately improve your sound, but if you upgrade your weakest link you'll get the MOST improvement. Buy the best possible improvement you can. If your pres are the weak pint And if a $300 pre isn't going to be an improvement wait for $500 or $700 or $2000 until you get a pre that will give you the best improvement.

Someone suggested that you need 1 to 2 dozen mics....I have that many, but they're no all neccesary. I use them for a wide variety of recordings, but if all your doing is the same thing (eg Acoustic guitar and Vox) than get a few mics that are excellent at that. And when your mics are the weakest link, than sell the old ones to help boost funds for the new and much better mic! for example: get a pair of MK012's for micing your guitar...than upgrade to a pair of AKG 451's and sell the MK012's...etc.

It may be that yoru rooom's acoustics are the worst link...it's actually likely in probably 50% or more of home studios...Try improving that situation as best you can...easy and quick fixes are not as expensive as you think for the gain...but building a whole properly isolated set of rooms can be VERY expensive...

Just my thoughts

Jacob
 
LemonTree said:
You know I've tried and tried but I just can't get a mic or a preamp to tune a guitar ;)

Just trying to let you hear the detail in a condensor as oposed to a dynamic
Still touchy then? Rockwool and drywalls getting you down? :eek:
 
noisedude said:
Still touchy then? Rockwool and drywalls getting you down? :eek:


LMAO!

It's just gone 10 am and I've fitted a bloody carpet already. It's all cosmetic now. Got a few finishing touches to do to the desk...screw in the rack rails and get the top shelf on. I've sidelined the seating units and the bass traps till later in the week. I just wanna get all the gear back in and clear up the rest of the house...I'm in a guddle!
 
DG - Wow! I love that tune! Consider me a fan. I can't even comment on the sound of the mics and pres, the song and production took me away to a place where those details didn't matter, something that so rarely happens to me anymore. I'll give another listen (or two or three :) ) to hear into the details, but at first blush I'd guess your upgrade path (budget in mind) might be a decent LD condenser, followed by a dual channel pre like the M-Audio DMP3, followed by a pair of SD condensers like the 012s or 603s. I agree that trying to stretch your limited $$ into a mic and pre right now is spreading too thin.

Cheers mate,
RD
 
whoooaaaa!... thanks for the nice comments :) (there are a couple of other songs in that directory anyone is welcome to, plus some more at the main site, but I have remixed/rerecorded some of the earlier ones, and haven't uploaded yet)

re the mic, thinking maybe about an AT4040 from ebay (never looked at ebay much before being on the other side of the world and all, but I see that many of the sellers are really retailers who ship worldwide anyway)

Still not quite sure how the newer brands with good reps like ADK and MXL compare to AT etc... I think I like a rich, 'coloured' sound (whatever that means) so may be the MXL V69 might be a better choice if i can't add any xtra flavour through a preamp at the moment... Still, I have just bought the 'Colortone' plugin from Tritone digital.. uses convolution stuff to model various signal paths... that sounds good to my ears too, :D its getting lotsa love on OSXaudio.
http://www.tritonedigital.com/products.htm#colortone

Lemontree, sorry to hassle you about the tuning... I really like that song... In fact I had heard it before, maybe in a thread about the tampa?? Liked it then, like it now, and the recording sounds good to my ears, thanks for the responses averyone.
 
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