Bad news for D824/D1624 owners in the US

skippy

skippy

New member
Well, it had to happen. I was checking the Fostex Japan web site, and saw that Fostex has released a new version of the D824/D1624 family recorders, called the MarkII version. http://www.fostex.co.jp/int/pages/products/dmtk/d824_1624.htm

These are blackface units based on the D2424, and use its new drive carrier and whatever other hardware upgrades were done to support 24-track operation. They also feature some significant software improvements, like more virtual tracks, and correction of the punch-out mute (one of the few things that really does annoy me on the unit). So I called up Fostex US, and asked how I could upgrade my trusty D1624 to the new MarkII software. What I got for answers from them was not very pleasant.

1. The existing D824/D1624 has been discontinued. No more will be made, and the remaining US stock was sold to Musician's Friend and Sam Ash at fire-sale prices last month. After those are gone, the line is _done_. So, *that's* why Musician's Friend has been having the blow-out sale on these units.

2. Fostex US has no intention of either importing the D824/D1624 MkII, or supporting any upgrades of existing units to MkII status. As far as Fostex US is concerned, there is only one remaining product in the line: the D2424.

3. The (apparently final) software revision for the machine is 1.08, and that can be obtained from the Fostex web site- but who knows for how long. It allows the unit to use up to 80Gb drives. http://www.fostex.com/Support/downloads.html . Go get it now if you think you might need it.

4. At some point in the past, John L. Rice (from RAP) found the service manual for the D1624 on one of Fostex's web sites. He has it online on his own personal site now, at http://www.imjohn.com/misc/d1624_824_sm.pdf .
I'd suggest that folks who have these machines download local copies of that document while it is available from John. It contains the software update procedure, as well as the necessary information for installing the option cards (like balanced I/O).

The option cards will still be available through the Fostex parts channel in this country: for whatever inexplicable reason, they just aren't going to bring the new units in.

So, I did the only thing that made sense to me: I called up Musician's Friend, and ordered a spare D1624 for my road rack. I got the next-to-last one in their inventory, and for a lot less than half what I paid for my original. I'm not going to get dragged into the "gotta-obsolete" thing on these units- they've barely been out a year, and they work just fine for me.

So if you've been thinking about getting one of these, _act now_ before they are all gone. I'll keep poking around, and I'll eventually find out if upgrading to the MKII software is even possible. I'm gonna stay with mine for the long haul (meaning: more than a year!)...

And maybe if we all gang up on Fostex US, we can get support for these machines, and perhaps the new models brought in. I for one am not too kindly disposed to being orphaned!
 
Skippy,

When I can contact them. I'll "sus" this out with the Aust., importers and see if they have any further information. Depending on their hours of trading over the Xmas period, this may not be for a week or two, but I'll let you know their response.

ChrisO :cool:
 
If you get better news on the MkII "upgrade" (like: that it exists!), please keep me in mind. I'll be importing it from Aus in that case!
 
hey skippy, thanks for the heads up!
i noticed the deal at mf and figured they were going out of production. i'm stepping up to the digital plate for the first time
and had planned on ordering the d824 or picking up a vsr880. as a newbie, i have some apprehensions about which one will be
best for me and my old mackie mixer. can you explain the "punch
out mute" problem? what is it? how do you get around it?
thanks for any help
mo element
 
When you're punching in, the punch out *records* very nicely. However, the monitoring does not instantly switch back to the previously recorded signal (as you're used to from analog machines). Instead, it mutes for a second or two. So in order to check out the smoothness/accuracy of the punch out, you have to stop, wind back, and replay: you can't really hear it in real time.

This is really a minor annoyance, since you'll always wind back and check it out *anyway*. Or at least I always do... It's just different than an analog machine, because you *have* to do it. Small spuds- that's just a "feature" of the software.
 
Skippy,

What is your current situation with the Mark II upgrades? Have you had any luck obtaining it?

I have just spoken to the local distributors,(who are now back from the Xmas break), so let me know ASAP, if you want me to pursue things for you.

Regards,

ChrisO :cool:
 
No luck at all: Fostex US doesn't acknowledge that it exists. It appears that they are firm in their decision not to import the MKII machines to the US, and they don't even want to hear about supporting it or upgrades to it. So whatever you can find out will be news to me...
 
Cool my friend,

I will email my contact immediately, including a copy of your original post. Saves boring her over the phone......lol.

A couple of points that were mentioned;

1; Although Fostex are still making the "smaller" recorders, distributors aren't importing due to lack of sales.........everyone wants the "newest, biggest, etc.," available.

2; They seemed to be aware of Mark II software.

3; If Alison can't help directly, etc., she will email her contact at Fostex, Japan. This was done for me when I had those percieved problems with my D160 and the Jap guy was actually trying to be helpful.

OK, that's it........I'll keep in touch.

ChrisO :cool:
 
A word about these units: If you select the 24bit/96kHz format, the D824 and D1624 are indistinguishable. Only at the sampling rates below 96kHz (44.1 and 48), will the D1624 output 16 tracks.

Also, thanks for the news. I had watched the price drop but didn't know why. The fact that they have been discontinued was all the reason I needed to order one. As a bonus, my D824 was delivered with a 30GB hard drive, not a 10GB. Very nice deal!
 
Yes, my second D1624 came in with a 30Gb drive as well- and the 1.08 firmware, as opposed to the 1.06 my original did. With that frmware, I think you an go up to 60Gb on the drives...

I always run at the slower rate, so the 8/16 decision goes to the higher track count for me. But you're absolutely right: if you want to go primarily 24/96 for your recording, you might as well go for the cheaper machine: the limiter is the disk interface bandwidth, so you can't get more than 8 in any case..

Markertek still had the 7045 balanced I/O upgrade for the 1624 in stock, so I have one of those on the way. With the service manual from the link above, installing it is easy...
 
Skippy,
Just a quick update. I have been told that due to defined territories imposed on Fostex distributors, that the Aust., people are unable to assist you. However, I have asked them if it is possible to supply/sell the necessary upgrade stuff to me.........if they can do this then we may still be in business.

Will let you know more as I find out.

ChrisO :cool:
 
I am also interested in getting the balanced i/o option, if I wasn't so upset about the continued price drop. 2 weeks ago, the D824 was $749, now it's $599. That would probably have paid for the i/o card, and then some (punch in/out pedal, perhaps). I know I can return the unit and buy one again, but I will have to pay shipping, go through the hassle and risk getting another unit that isn't 100%. The one I got, I like. Whatever (grumble).

I do have something I'd like to throw out, and it's not a complaint:

I wonder about digital fidelity and where it is going. Like computers, I would imagine that next year at this time the best fidelity in home recording will likely be at 32 bit, with 128kHz sampling rate. At what point does this constant improvement become moot? At 16 bit 44.1kHz, everyone is happy with the CD's that are released currently. I've heard that DVD audio is 24/96, but can everyone tell the difference? Will it peak at some point, or is there some new process that will come along and require the higher specs?

In the computer business, I used to keep track of processor clock speeds, memory, and the like, but not anymore. It hardly matters unless you're in CAD/CAM or Photoshop applications all day. The 1 gig processors arrived last year, with less fanfare than the 386! Now it's beyond that, but my Word documents all look the same.

I know that I'm over simplifying, but the fact is that the latest advancements are less noticable than they used to be, and I wonder how this will affect the home recording industry.
 
Don't worry: *everything* will become obsolete, and sooner than later. Howerver, 24bit/44.1kHz on the current gear sounds just fine to me, the gear is inexpensive at this moment due to economic pressures, and you can have it today and work with it tomorrow.

I don't anticipate 32bit sampling any time soon. The dynamic range of 24bit is already 144dB, theoretically, and very few "24-bit" converters can actually achieve greater than 115dB in practice: you're running into the thermal noise of the input stage resistors as the low end, which means that your bottom couple of bits are already just noise. Adding more bits of noise below those isn't going to help much, and most folks don't really want to have to run the input stage of their preamps immersed in liquid nitrogen to reduce the thermal noise enough to make use of more bits- so it *may* be moot.

So I don't see there being a lot of _real_ pressure to go beyond 24 bit any time soon. Now, the audiophiles who claim to be able to hear out to 200kHz will want higher sampling rates and bigger bit depths, but they won't really know why: they basically just think bigger numbers are sexy. They will wax rhapsodic over how wonderful everything will sound whenever whoever finally ships the next whatever that provides bigger numbers. Sigh... Meanwhile, those of us who have suspected all along that the emperor really is buck naked will be getting work done with our old, creaky, 24-bit gear.

The real bang for the buck in bigger bit depth is not in the converters, at this point- it's in the signal processing data paths, where 32-bit, 48-bit, and higher depths in the floating point math that makes this all work will reduce noise, distortion, and cumulative roundoff errors through multiple stages of processing. Then, you can dither to 24-bit and crank it out to the same old speakers, and _that_ will sound better.

I do know some folks who are waiting to buy gear until the industry reaches the limits of what it can do. They'll be waiting a long time... Meanwhile, I'm happily using my maybe-soon-to-be-obsoleted gear to make music today. It sounds good to me today, I suspect that it'll continue to sound good to me tomorrow, and I know enough not to try to predict the future any more. After all, I'm one of those guys who paid $2400 for one of the first 128K Macs back in the day.
 
Whew! I feel better. Musicians Friend gave me credit when I called to ask if I could take any recourse regarding the $150 price drop. They gave me a $150 credit, to be spent at MF, of course.

Still, it goes to show you: Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Now I like the D824 more than ever.
 
Outstanding.

Thanks for the pointer. I just went and looked, and they had dropped the D1624 back from $1199 to $899 on their web site. So I called them up, and they just credited me that $300 difference as well. I wouldn't even have thought to ask, had you not pointed that out. Well done...

I just installed the balanced I/O card this weekend and made the acoustic noise reduction mods, so I'm a truly happy camper. $899 for that machine is absolutely a _screamin'_ deal, without question- especially when you can get that price even after the deal is closed. Score one for Musician's Friend, to be sure!
 
D1624

Glad that worked out for you guys...I was feelin' guilty when I picked up a D1624 for $899 from MF. Yeah, they're doing the right thing. Can't say the same for zZounds, though, as I've had some recent problems with them on ordering gear (long story...).

Really like the machine - awesome features and more flexibility than I would have expected. One question, though: The drive is a lot noisier than I would have thought. Are you all having the same problem? It sort of precludes the possibility of tracking in the same room. Guess I'll have to get the extension cable for the controller. Be interested to know how you're handling that.

Gelon
 
Thanks, Skippy - appreciate the info, though I'm not sure I'm up to doing all the stuff you did. Aside from all the acoustic damping, how much of a reduction in noise do you imagine you got by swapping out the fan for a larger one? That would be a relatively easy fix. Gelon
 
Probably 12dB. That was by far the most important part of the job. I did the other stuff just for insurance, and to attenuate the "ticking" sound of the heads seeking a bit more. The machine can be improved remarkably by hogging out that fan bracket to accept a 50mm or larger fan, and setting up a diode voltage dropper to run it at 7 Volts instead of the full 12V. That can be done by anybody with a Phillips screwdriver and a pair of tin snips or a nibbler.
 
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