I generally feel like the whole PC vs Mac thing is silly. To each his own. If you really like the Mac that much, go ahead, spend the extra money. BUT, DON'T PULL ALL THAT "SPEED DOESN'T COUNT" BULLSHIT!
I'll let the following quote from the sonik bbs by someone who knows more than me explain. If you know more than him and can prove something, or show unbiased proof, go ahead.
"
Quoted from a previous post titled: Apple / Emagic Info Links
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maxed out Power Mac Dual Cpu w/ Dual Scsi Drives ultra160 and 1.5gb ram. Super Drive DVD-R/CD RW.
Summary
• 1GHz - DP PowerPC G4(Dual CPU)
• 1.5GB SDRAM - 3 DIMMs
• 2x72GB Ultra160 SCSI - Dual card
• Apple SuperDrive
• NVIDIA GeForce4 Titanium
• Apple Cinema Display (22" flat panel)
• 56K internal modem
• Apple Pro Keyboard - U.S. English
• Mac OS - U.S. English
Subtotal $8,548.00
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
that's the biggest joke I have ever seen. $8000 for dual 1GHz. And at that price, you haven't even purchased an audio card and software to go with it!
Ive been watching this whole shabang go down here in the forums, with much interest. but im tired of seeing you do nothing but give the windows guys nothing but a hard time. Im a bi-platform user myself and love BOTH platforms. They are both great and offer many advantages on their own, but there are some simple cold facts about both platforms that NO one can argue. so now a little schooling session for our friend Mr Black on how you can really spend $8000 for a proper system for audio....
I've got time, do you? lets examine this a little closer:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
• 1GHz - DP PowerPC G4(Dual CPU)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First off, there is no argument that the Intel processor is by far much faster than any Motorola based processor when it comes to the audio DSP tasks that are called for in applications like Logic, Nuendo Cubase, and many other audio processing applications. I work in the industry for a major software synthesis company and we do plenty of testing as well as my own testing, and the facts are in the tests, not in apple's marketing scams. i've spent numerous hours doing performance test with many different applications and plugins available for both platforms. and the bottom line is, both Mac, and PC based processors are equivalent. Par on Par. An 800MHz Mac is going to give you roughtly the same amount of plugin count, soft-synth polyphony, etc. as a Intel Pentium-III 800MHz PC. A Dual 1Ghz system is going to perform the same as a Dual 1GHz PC. if you think otherwise, then PROVE IT! Give me some figures some facts, and some statistics to prove otherwise. But don't come here ranting and raving and wasting bandwidth posting Mac prices and system . that's what www.apple.com/store is for.
So. Let's say a dual P4 1.8GHz system:
Cost for processor: $197.00 each ($394.00 total)
Supermicro P4DC6+ MB: $556.00
that just gave us a system that already outperforms the Mac in processor power, but also supports up to 16GB of RAM.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
• 1.5GB RAMBUS - 3 DIMMs
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$73.00 for a 512MB stick ($219.00 for 3 total)
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
• 2x72GB Ultra160 SCSI - Dual card
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Who the hell needs Ultra160 SCSI? unless you plan on serving some database for a few thousand sales reps or plan on running an online shop with thousands of hits a minute, you can scrap the Ultra160. although granted the board i've chosen already has an onboard Adaptec RAID SCSI controller. Obviously your not up to date on the other side of hardware for audio systems. Programs like Nuendo and Cubase on the PC can easily handle upto 200 tracks of audio on a standard UltraDMA100 IDE based Hard Drive running at 7200 RPM. i've done the tests, Steinberg has done the tests, and many others have. Sure go ahead and spend your money, we'll play it smart and stick to IDE for this example. So, we'll beef things up a bit since we don't need to spend money on a SCSI card.
2x 120GB IBM IDE ATA100 7200RPM HD
$139 each ($278 total)
(NOTE: the recent issue of IBM GXP drive crashing is not a known problem with the larger sized drivese. this was prominently an issue with the 60GB and 75GB GXP drives)
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
• Apple SuperDrive
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Forget a SuperDrive. if you want serious backup with the best cost per MB storage, then go for an Onstream Drive. www.onstream.com. Internal IDE based ADR tape cartridge with full drag-n-drop functionality. Acts just like an internal HD.
Internal Onstream IDE ADR60 Drive: $478.00
3-pack of 60GB Cartridges: $156.00
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
• NVIDIA GeForce4 Titanium
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We'll go for a Matrox G450 32MB AGP Dual-Head Display Card
$65.00
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
• Apple Cinema Display (22" flat panel)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
they sure look pretty don't they! well that's fine. you keep looking pretty. we'll save our money and worry about what counts...getting the job done.
2 18.1" NEC 1850 (Black) Flat Panel Displays. (yes, 2 of them for a killer dual display setup)
$789 each ($1578.00 total)
take a look at:
http://www.necmitsubishi.com/products/home/product.cfm?productid=188&cfid=439 6562&cftoken=5279802
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
• 56K internal modem
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why bother? we'll go ethernet to a DSL modem using the 10/100 Ethernet port built into the motherboard. Most people have DSL or cable now. if not, then go ahead and get a modem if needed.
Cost: $0
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
• Apple Pro Keyboard - U.S. English
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sure why not! we'll go ahead and get a nice Apple Pro keyboard just for the fun of it. After all, they make you pay for all that nifty design work ey? So we'll go pick one up at the local Apple Store. And yes, you can use an Apple keyboard with a PC, I do! It's connected to a USB switch box that I use to switch between my PC laptop and my super blazing fast G4 450MHz system.
Cost: $60.00 at your local Apple Store
(seriously, I do like the apple pro keyboard)
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
• Mac OS - U.S. English
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well....something tells me we won't be needing that. So we'll pay Mr. Gates $199.00 for a full copy of Windows XP Home.
Now just a few things more we'll need to make a true audio system:
Logitech 2-button Optical Wheel Mouse: $19.00
4-space Black RackMount ATX PC Case: $200.00
400Watt PSU: $40-$50
Sony 52X DVD-Drive: $70.00
1.44MB Floppy Disk (for those times when you just want to play with DOS): $7.00
RME Hammefall DSP w/Multiface Audio Card: $1000
Copy of Cubase SX: $400-$500
So now we add in about a day's worth of time building and getting everything setup. Let's say a Saturday we'll do it since some of us might have a client to work with a remix project or something else to do that we can't afford to lose out on a day's worth of work. And for those of you who like to argue about the time factor (mr clif), the fact is, I rather spend the time now building the system and getting it done, which give me a much faster system. So that I spend LESS time afterwards having to constantly bounce shit down to disk and render stuff all the time because my Mac simply can't handle it. And we're talking this is a serious issue for the modern programmer, engineer, musician who wants to take the entire virutal route, which solely depends on the speed of the system.
Whooping grand total: $5774.00
Now. the choice is yours:
$8500+ for a Dual 1Ghz system with no audio hardware or software to go with it.
or
$5774.00 for a Dual 1.8GHz system with the same specs, faster CPU's, and an excellent high-quality 8I/O audio card with a full version of Cubase SX.
I have nothing further to say....
Did you bait me Mr. Black? Sure you did! But I enjoyed it to the very last minute. I even enjoyed pulling the bait hook out of my mouth.
yes, today I had a day off and lots of time on my hands. So I figured I'd spend a little extra time educating Mr Black on why it is that we choose PC, so that maybe he can finally shut the hell up. Mr. Black seems to have a lot of time on his hands after soo many posts I've read lately, so im sure he won't have any trouble finding the time to read this information and let it soak in (?), and just maybe...he'll find the time to build a PC and do the test and prove me wrong about just how fast a Mac is compared to a PC.
As a final word, what I don't think alot of people realize is that, many PC users WOULD use a Mac over a PC if they were just cheaper and more in line with the price for performance factor. In the audio world, as things become more and more native and virtual to the computer, the speed of the processor and how well it can perform is becoming more and more crucial to the scheme of things. And with the current recession, who has $8000 to spend on a system, when they can do it for almost $3000 cheaper and have a faster system, to get more work done in less time. The Mac OS is great, it's easier to use, less time with configuration and it's much more visually appealing. the Hardware looks great, easy to install upgrades, and is very stable, just like a well built PC.
But in the end....our wallets control us. If a 1GHz+ PowerMac G4 with PCI slots (not an iMac) cost what it's really worth ($800-$900), then I could almost guarantee you'd see MANY more people switch over, as Apple would like to see. But then you hav the whole software issues, and not everything being available on both platforms...whole different story...
anyways, in my opinion, until they make some dramatic changes to either their pricing scheme or processor speeds...i doubt things are going to change in the audio world, people are becoming more and more educated about what is REALLY up between the Mac and PC, and ain't no marketing team going to un-educate them or fool them on what is really up. With the new younger generation of musicians and artists already being computer savy at the start, it takes no time for them to learn how to setup a cheap PC to get the job done. Despite whether it's a hassle or not, the fact is....they spend less money...to get a working system...to get their job done....
[This post was made on a Mac]
"
Here's the link if you want to read the whole thread: http://community.sonikmatter.com/emagic/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=000477
I'll let the following quote from the sonik bbs by someone who knows more than me explain. If you know more than him and can prove something, or show unbiased proof, go ahead.
"
Quoted from a previous post titled: Apple / Emagic Info Links
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maxed out Power Mac Dual Cpu w/ Dual Scsi Drives ultra160 and 1.5gb ram. Super Drive DVD-R/CD RW.
Summary
• 1GHz - DP PowerPC G4(Dual CPU)
• 1.5GB SDRAM - 3 DIMMs
• 2x72GB Ultra160 SCSI - Dual card
• Apple SuperDrive
• NVIDIA GeForce4 Titanium
• Apple Cinema Display (22" flat panel)
• 56K internal modem
• Apple Pro Keyboard - U.S. English
• Mac OS - U.S. English
Subtotal $8,548.00
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
that's the biggest joke I have ever seen. $8000 for dual 1GHz. And at that price, you haven't even purchased an audio card and software to go with it!
Ive been watching this whole shabang go down here in the forums, with much interest. but im tired of seeing you do nothing but give the windows guys nothing but a hard time. Im a bi-platform user myself and love BOTH platforms. They are both great and offer many advantages on their own, but there are some simple cold facts about both platforms that NO one can argue. so now a little schooling session for our friend Mr Black on how you can really spend $8000 for a proper system for audio....
I've got time, do you? lets examine this a little closer:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
• 1GHz - DP PowerPC G4(Dual CPU)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First off, there is no argument that the Intel processor is by far much faster than any Motorola based processor when it comes to the audio DSP tasks that are called for in applications like Logic, Nuendo Cubase, and many other audio processing applications. I work in the industry for a major software synthesis company and we do plenty of testing as well as my own testing, and the facts are in the tests, not in apple's marketing scams. i've spent numerous hours doing performance test with many different applications and plugins available for both platforms. and the bottom line is, both Mac, and PC based processors are equivalent. Par on Par. An 800MHz Mac is going to give you roughtly the same amount of plugin count, soft-synth polyphony, etc. as a Intel Pentium-III 800MHz PC. A Dual 1Ghz system is going to perform the same as a Dual 1GHz PC. if you think otherwise, then PROVE IT! Give me some figures some facts, and some statistics to prove otherwise. But don't come here ranting and raving and wasting bandwidth posting Mac prices and system . that's what www.apple.com/store is for.
So. Let's say a dual P4 1.8GHz system:
Cost for processor: $197.00 each ($394.00 total)
Supermicro P4DC6+ MB: $556.00
that just gave us a system that already outperforms the Mac in processor power, but also supports up to 16GB of RAM.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
• 1.5GB RAMBUS - 3 DIMMs
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$73.00 for a 512MB stick ($219.00 for 3 total)
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
• 2x72GB Ultra160 SCSI - Dual card
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Who the hell needs Ultra160 SCSI? unless you plan on serving some database for a few thousand sales reps or plan on running an online shop with thousands of hits a minute, you can scrap the Ultra160. although granted the board i've chosen already has an onboard Adaptec RAID SCSI controller. Obviously your not up to date on the other side of hardware for audio systems. Programs like Nuendo and Cubase on the PC can easily handle upto 200 tracks of audio on a standard UltraDMA100 IDE based Hard Drive running at 7200 RPM. i've done the tests, Steinberg has done the tests, and many others have. Sure go ahead and spend your money, we'll play it smart and stick to IDE for this example. So, we'll beef things up a bit since we don't need to spend money on a SCSI card.
2x 120GB IBM IDE ATA100 7200RPM HD
$139 each ($278 total)
(NOTE: the recent issue of IBM GXP drive crashing is not a known problem with the larger sized drivese. this was prominently an issue with the 60GB and 75GB GXP drives)
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
• Apple SuperDrive
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Forget a SuperDrive. if you want serious backup with the best cost per MB storage, then go for an Onstream Drive. www.onstream.com. Internal IDE based ADR tape cartridge with full drag-n-drop functionality. Acts just like an internal HD.
Internal Onstream IDE ADR60 Drive: $478.00
3-pack of 60GB Cartridges: $156.00
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
• NVIDIA GeForce4 Titanium
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We'll go for a Matrox G450 32MB AGP Dual-Head Display Card
$65.00
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
• Apple Cinema Display (22" flat panel)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
they sure look pretty don't they! well that's fine. you keep looking pretty. we'll save our money and worry about what counts...getting the job done.
2 18.1" NEC 1850 (Black) Flat Panel Displays. (yes, 2 of them for a killer dual display setup)
$789 each ($1578.00 total)
take a look at:
http://www.necmitsubishi.com/products/home/product.cfm?productid=188&cfid=439 6562&cftoken=5279802
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
• 56K internal modem
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why bother? we'll go ethernet to a DSL modem using the 10/100 Ethernet port built into the motherboard. Most people have DSL or cable now. if not, then go ahead and get a modem if needed.
Cost: $0
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
• Apple Pro Keyboard - U.S. English
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sure why not! we'll go ahead and get a nice Apple Pro keyboard just for the fun of it. After all, they make you pay for all that nifty design work ey? So we'll go pick one up at the local Apple Store. And yes, you can use an Apple keyboard with a PC, I do! It's connected to a USB switch box that I use to switch between my PC laptop and my super blazing fast G4 450MHz system.
Cost: $60.00 at your local Apple Store
(seriously, I do like the apple pro keyboard)
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
• Mac OS - U.S. English
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well....something tells me we won't be needing that. So we'll pay Mr. Gates $199.00 for a full copy of Windows XP Home.
Now just a few things more we'll need to make a true audio system:
Logitech 2-button Optical Wheel Mouse: $19.00
4-space Black RackMount ATX PC Case: $200.00
400Watt PSU: $40-$50
Sony 52X DVD-Drive: $70.00
1.44MB Floppy Disk (for those times when you just want to play with DOS): $7.00
RME Hammefall DSP w/Multiface Audio Card: $1000
Copy of Cubase SX: $400-$500
So now we add in about a day's worth of time building and getting everything setup. Let's say a Saturday we'll do it since some of us might have a client to work with a remix project or something else to do that we can't afford to lose out on a day's worth of work. And for those of you who like to argue about the time factor (mr clif), the fact is, I rather spend the time now building the system and getting it done, which give me a much faster system. So that I spend LESS time afterwards having to constantly bounce shit down to disk and render stuff all the time because my Mac simply can't handle it. And we're talking this is a serious issue for the modern programmer, engineer, musician who wants to take the entire virutal route, which solely depends on the speed of the system.
Whooping grand total: $5774.00
Now. the choice is yours:
$8500+ for a Dual 1Ghz system with no audio hardware or software to go with it.
or
$5774.00 for a Dual 1.8GHz system with the same specs, faster CPU's, and an excellent high-quality 8I/O audio card with a full version of Cubase SX.
I have nothing further to say....
Did you bait me Mr. Black? Sure you did! But I enjoyed it to the very last minute. I even enjoyed pulling the bait hook out of my mouth.
yes, today I had a day off and lots of time on my hands. So I figured I'd spend a little extra time educating Mr Black on why it is that we choose PC, so that maybe he can finally shut the hell up. Mr. Black seems to have a lot of time on his hands after soo many posts I've read lately, so im sure he won't have any trouble finding the time to read this information and let it soak in (?), and just maybe...he'll find the time to build a PC and do the test and prove me wrong about just how fast a Mac is compared to a PC.
As a final word, what I don't think alot of people realize is that, many PC users WOULD use a Mac over a PC if they were just cheaper and more in line with the price for performance factor. In the audio world, as things become more and more native and virtual to the computer, the speed of the processor and how well it can perform is becoming more and more crucial to the scheme of things. And with the current recession, who has $8000 to spend on a system, when they can do it for almost $3000 cheaper and have a faster system, to get more work done in less time. The Mac OS is great, it's easier to use, less time with configuration and it's much more visually appealing. the Hardware looks great, easy to install upgrades, and is very stable, just like a well built PC.
But in the end....our wallets control us. If a 1GHz+ PowerMac G4 with PCI slots (not an iMac) cost what it's really worth ($800-$900), then I could almost guarantee you'd see MANY more people switch over, as Apple would like to see. But then you hav the whole software issues, and not everything being available on both platforms...whole different story...
anyways, in my opinion, until they make some dramatic changes to either their pricing scheme or processor speeds...i doubt things are going to change in the audio world, people are becoming more and more educated about what is REALLY up between the Mac and PC, and ain't no marketing team going to un-educate them or fool them on what is really up. With the new younger generation of musicians and artists already being computer savy at the start, it takes no time for them to learn how to setup a cheap PC to get the job done. Despite whether it's a hassle or not, the fact is....they spend less money...to get a working system...to get their job done....
[This post was made on a Mac]
"
Here's the link if you want to read the whole thread: http://community.sonikmatter.com/emagic/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=000477
How many people do you know that run ProTools with stability on a 7-year-old PC.
You obviously know the PC much better.
