amp problems

CrazyMetalBeer

New member
I have a Mesa Mark IV, and when I got it (used), I was unaware of the matching of the tubes, and ran 6L6's in it for a while. after a bit, one of the tubes started cutting out/making noise, so I swapped it with an EL34.
soooo....my dumb ass ran 3 6L6's that weren't exactly set up right, and 1 EL34 for a few months. Then one day I fired up the amp and it sounded funny. The lead channel just sounds much shittier than before.

I set it up the correct way yesterday, with used tubes....and it still sounded bad.

Do you think I fried something when I ran the tubes funky? Or do I just need new tubes?
 
just get all new power tubes, and take it somewhere to have it correctly [can't stress this enough]biased[/can't stress this enough] and set up. the pin layout on the el34's is similar to 6L6's, but they opperate at different voltages. don't mix and match, you won't get very good results and you will kill the life of your tubes, and maybe your amp.
 
heroics321 said:
just get all new power tubes, and take it somewhere to have it correctly [can't stress this enough]biased[/can't stress this enough] and set up. the pin layout on the el34's is similar to 6L6's, but they opperate at different voltages. don't mix and match, you won't get very good results and you will kill the life of your tubes, and maybe your amp.
well apparently the Mark IV is self-biasing. :cool:

I just have some un-working knobs that need to be fixed.
 
The boogies are 'self biasing' but you can get a tech to make sure the bias voltage is right. EL34's and 6L6's are not interchangable, but I don't think that would have screwed anything up. I cant imagine that it sounded good, the power section of that amp is set up as a push pull system. 2 of the tubes amplify the positive part of the signal and the other 2 do the negative. Having unmatched tubes of the same type doesn't work very well, much less two different types of tubes.
Have a tech (a good one) go over this amp with a fine-toothed comb to catch all the stuff that is crapping out on you. If the pots are dirty and things are going wrong, it is best to just get it all worked over.
 
Farview said:
The boogies are 'self biasing' but you can get a tech to make sure the bias voltage is right. EL34's and 6L6's are not interchangable, but I don't think that would have screwed anything up. I cant imagine that it sounded good, the power section of that amp is set up as a push pull system. 2 of the tubes amplify the positive part of the signal and the other 2 do the negative. Having unmatched tubes of the same type doesn't work very well, much less two different types of tubes.
Have a tech (a good one) go over this amp with a fine-toothed comb to catch all the stuff that is crapping out on you. If the pots are dirty and things are going wrong, it is best to just get it all worked over.
hmmm...unless I accidentally put the tubes in their correct spots, (yes, you read that right)...but it definitely sounded killer for a while.....

I'm thinking about just sending it out to Mesa and have them make it like new again....but that would cost me a nice chunk of dough.....
 
Let me rephrase that. The amp will not sound like it is supposed to. Whether or not you liked the sound, it wasn't supposed to be that way.
 
Farview said:
Let me rephrase that. The amp will not sound like it is supposed to. Whether or not you liked the sound, it wasn't supposed to be that way.
ahh.

....I'm debating wether to call Mesa and get an estimate and maybe send it to them....or just find a tech around here that could go over it.....

I know it would be a very wise choice to send it to Mesa, but it will take a while I am sure.
 
I don't think there is anything special about the mark V that a good tech couldn't figure out. Tube technology hasn't changed in 30 years, there is nothing different about the circuit so much as the tone stack and the parts that are used. A local tech should be able to handle it.
 
Check out eurotubes.com...

You can write Bob an e-mail and he'll tell you what you need. Try and go into a little detail so he knows what you're talking about, but he's very knowedgeable and helpful. He'll personally write you back with his reccomendations.
 
Just a little caveat...the Mark IV is generally a "Simul-Class" design, and it is made to run both a pair of 6L6's ad EL-34's concurrently in pairs. I'm not sure what running 3 of one type and one of another would do...give their customer support a call, they're actually pretty good ;) (707) 778-6565
 
SteveK said:
Just a little caveat...the Mark IV is generally a "Simul-Class" design, and it is made to run both a pair of 6L6's ad EL-34's concurrently in pairs. I'm not sure what running 3 of one type and one of another would do...give their customer support a call, they're actually pretty good ;) (707) 778-6565

It's even better than that-
In simul-class one pair runs in class AB and one pair runs in class A. You can run 2 els and 2 6Ls, or 4 6L6 tubes.
 
boingoman said:
It's even better than that-
In simul-class one pair runs in class AB and one pair runs in class A. You can run 2 els and 2 6Ls, or 4 6L6 tubes.
he speaks the truth. :cool:

I'm going to check out that eurotubes site, thanks guys!
 
CMB,

You probably have one or more screen resistors that are fried and "open" ( This is common in the later Mk's ). The result of an open screen resistor is that it shuts the tube it's feeding off. The heater will still glow, so you can't just look at the tubes to determine this. If just one tube is off, you will get an assymetric pair of signals feeding the output transformer ( remember, it's Push-Pull ) which will cause distortion. The screen resistor fails because of too much current, which indicates a tube going or gone bad ( plate or screen arcing to a ground path, such as the cathode ) or a tube that is under biased ( Not enough negative bias voltage on the grid of the tube, causing it to run too much current through the tube ). The fix is a new screen resistor and new tubes, and of course a check/adjustment of the bias.

An assymetric signal as decribed above doesn't usually cause "A heap of distortion" , but a bad tube will if it's still amplifying. But there's worse demons that cause real bad distortion, and have to be mentioned here.. We call it "Cascading failure". Your Mk should have some diodes on the power tubes to prevent this, but I mention the problem none the less. An arced tube theoretically should put a great load on the power supply and pop the main fuse. Unfortunately, sometimes before this happen the output transformer is damaged. This was notorious on the old Marshalls because the Drake OT's were extemely sensitive. This is why Jim Marshall put a 1/2 amp fuse before the OT supply, which you won't see in a lot of other brands ( More often just setting the wrong impedance on the back of the Marshall's would fry the Drake's ). What all this means to you is it might not be just the tubes or screen resistors, but in my experience servicing Mesa Mk's, it probably is. If your not experienced working on high voltage gear, have a tech do check it out. Even unplugged, a charge in the power supply caps could kill you!

Sorry to get so long, couldn't tell it any other way.

Good luck

Bill
 
BillnShell said:
CMB,

You probably have one or more screen resistors that are fried and "open" ( This is common in the later Mk's ). The result of an open screen resistor is that it shuts the tube it's feeding off. The heater will still glow, so you can't just look at the tubes to determine this. If just one tube is off, you will get an assymetric pair of signals feeding the output transformer ( remember, it's Push-Pull ) which will cause distortion. The screen resistor fails because of too much current, which indicates a tube going or gone bad ( plate or screen arcing to a ground path, such as the cathode ) or a tube that is under biased ( Not enough negative bias voltage on the grid of the tube, causing it to run too much current through the tube ). The fix is a new screen resistor and new tubes, and of course a check/adjustment of the bias.

An assymetric signal as decribed above doesn't usually cause "A heap of distortion" , but a bad tube will if it's still amplifying. But there's worse demons that cause real bad distortion, and have to be mentioned here.. We call it "Cascading failure". Your Mk should have some diodes on the power tubes to prevent this, but I mention the problem none the less. An arced tube theoretically should put a great load on the power supply and pop the main fuse. Unfortunately, sometimes before this happen the output transformer is damaged. This was notorious on the old Marshalls because the Drake OT's were extemely sensitive. This is why Jim Marshall put a 1/2 amp fuse before the OT supply, which you won't see in a lot of other brands ( More often just setting the wrong impedance on the back of the Marshall's would fry the Drake's ). What all this means to you is it might not be just the tubes or screen resistors, but in my experience servicing Mesa Mk's, it probably is. If your not experienced working on high voltage gear, have a tech do check it out. Even unplugged, a charge in the power supply caps could kill you!

Sorry to get so long, couldn't tell it any other way.

Good luck

Bill
wow. :eek:
I also remember the amp making a "popping" sound every once in a while, that would come thru the speakers....dunno if this is any more valuable info...
 
Last edited:
Ratzz,

I forgot to mention, do a search on Lord Valve ( I know, funky name, it started as joke, and was too sucsessfull to change ). He's IMHO the best there is out there to buy tubes from. He runs every tube he sells or 12, or 24 hours ( depending on the type ) before testing to weed out crib deaths, then test's both mechanically for microphonics and electronically for conductance, etc. I've never gotten a bad product from him, and neither will you.

Sorry if this seems like spam, it's not, as a person who repairs amps I've bought a ton of tubes in my life, and I like to share the good experience I've had with L.V.

I am not affiliated with him.

Cheers,

Bill
 
CrazyMetalBeer said:
wow. :eek:
I also remember the amp making a "popping" sound every once in a while, that would come thru the speakers....dunno if this is any more valuable info...


There a number of things that can cause popping, but that's quite often a tube socket arcing. This is something you can check yourself. Unplug the amp, get a brite flashlight, pull the power tubes ( one at a time, or number them with a sharpie first if you want to pull all of them, so you can put them back in the same position. I'll explain in a bit why you want to preserve thier position ), and take a real good long inspection of the sockets. What your looking for is tracking.. burn marks from arcing. They can be micro small, so I use a magnifying glass to be sure, but usually it will be pretty obvious. Socket arcing is a cancer to the socket. The only fix is to replace the socket.

The reason you want to preserve the tube's positions are to preserve the symptom, and to keep any problems from migrating, and doing further damage. This will also make troubleshooting the distortion problem easier by not introducing other variables.

While your in there, give the tubes a good look. Are the plates ( the grey metal inside the tube ) discolored? That's a sign of them running too much current ( underbised ).


When your done, put the tubes back in and ( provided you didn't see any arcing on the sockets, if you did, get it to a tech ) power the amp up with the volumes on zero, no instrument, and watch the power tubes for 2 things, red glowing ( cherry ) areas on one or more of the plates, or arcing inside one or more of the tubes. Regarding cherry plates, don't mistake the yellow glow of the heater ( filament ) inside the plates, that's normal. When you see a plate glow, you will know it Immediately. If there is a soft blue glow around the plates, like a plasma cloud, that's OK too, it's a bit of gas in the tube ( some folks get quite anal about this, but honest, it's fine and common. Most of my Mullard's do it ).
The arcing looks just like lightening. It will be very intermittant, so watch for a bit.
If there are neither, then plug a guitar in, turn the amp up to your normal playing volume ( or when you notice the distortion ) and watch the tubes while you play. Sometimes it takes the extra current of playing to set off either cherry plate or arcing. Don't take a shortcut by playing first, following the proceedure I described, and stating the results to your tech will have him thanking you.

A couple of last things I want to mention, one regarding popping. Arcing inside an output transformer will cause loud popping. This is the slow death of an OT. Very bad news for nice collectable amps, but there are a number of excellent companies and custom winders that can duplicate yours. Hopefully that won't be the problem.

An old winder told me something when I started out many moons ago. He said " Never store an amp where you wouldn't want to sleep". I'll add to that, never run an output transformer coupled amp without a load ( the speaker ) . More OT's have been fried this way than any other. I've done it. You might get lucky and catch it before you hit that power cord, but.. enough said I guess..

( Solid state is another story, it's too much of a load that kills them, but that's for another day )

Hope this helps,

Bill
 
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