All I got is a red guitar, three chords . . and 3,000 dollars.

S

Squashboy

New member
After reading a few of these messages I see that I am not alone in my musical aspirations . . . or ignorance. Sooooo, here's my situation, and I'm hoping some good-hearted expert out there can point me in the right direction. Here's what I have:

A guitar

I know it doesn't sound like much, and truly . . . it's not. But it's a rather good guitar, and I also have a budget of around 3,000 dollars. I'd like to record songs with two or three vocal tracks, and two or three guitar tracks, maybe some light percussion. So here's what I figure I've got to get:

A computer
A sound card
Some software
A mixer
A brain
A mic
Monitors
CD burner
Cables to put all this stuff together

What I want to know is how much do you think I should spend on each? And, what recommendations do you have for each? If you have time to respond, I'll really appreciate any info you might have.

Thanks,

John
 
Squash, first we need to know if do you want to record live with multiple mics and instruments or just do one track at a time and mix later.

Layth
 
I think I'd just be recording one track at a time. It's my wife and I that write the songs, but I play all the guitar parts myself. At least for now, that's how it would be. Of course, if possible I'd like to get something that didn't preclude recording live with multiple tracks in the future. Thanks for your reply.
 
here is my guesstimate with brief explanations..

computer
if you only need about 16-20 tracks with effects your computer expense will be about 1300 with 17 inch monitor , depending on where you buy it from or if you build it yourself..

soundcard
300 bucks.. you only need a 2 input card doing one track at a time.. look into the darla 24 or the wave 424..

software
this can be as low as 40 bucks if you go with ntrack , which is a great program , or can be as high as 400 bucks for something like vegas pro..

mixer
about 400 bucks for a good cheap mixer like the mackie 1202 vlz.. but , if your only doing one track at a time , you can get away with an art tube mp with rivals preamps in 1000 dollar mixing boards..(110 bucks)

brain
those arent cheap my friend.. this is the one thing that might put you over budget..check on ebay for a used one..

mics
for vocals or acoustics get a rode nt1 (200 bucks) and to mike instruments go with a shure sm-57 (100 bucks)..

monitors
everyone seems to like the event 20/20s .. i think they run 500 bucks..

cd burner
this will run you about 200 bucks for a good internal one for your computer..

cables
dunno.. im gonna guess and say 100 bucks at most..all you need really is mic cable..

totals :
with overkill software and mixer
3500.. hmmn..i went over budget..

with ntrack and preamp :
2850 ... ding ding ding.. we have a winner!!

thats just my 2 cents , and i cant be held accountable for typographical errors, misprints, or extreme lack of knowlege on the subject.

- eddie -
 
Eddie,

Someday, when I'm an expert on all this stuff, I promise to be just as nice to beginners as you are. Wow, thanks for responding so thoroughly! That at least gives me a relative price range for each thing when I start shopping.

There is one other factor I didn't mention. I already have a monitor. So how do I have a monitor, but no computer? It's a crazy story, but the basics are:

1) I'm in China
2) I brought my computer with me and left my monitor home
3) I'm not taking my computer home.

Ergo: when I get home (two weeks) I'll need a new computer, but not a new monitor.

So, with the couple-hundred that takes off the computer price, would you spend that on a better mixer (i.e. the mackie 1202 vlz), or better software (something like vegas pro)? Thanks again.
 
I may be missing something...but arent you gonna need some sorta amp to run those 20/20's?

The Event 20/20's are goin for $299 at Musicians Friend, which means you can probably find em for a little cheaper than that somewhere else.

Im not sure what to recommend in terms of an amp, i'm kinda looking for advice on this subject myself.

[This message has been edited by KingNothing (edited 06-13-2000).]
 
hmmnn.. im gonna have to say that if you save a few hundred on a monitor , then i would say put it into better multitracking software.. ive never used ntrack , but ive used vegas pro and i must say its powerful as well as user friendly.. you dont really need a mixer if your only recording one track at a time... unless your guitar is an acoustic , then you might have use for one.. and when you begin toying with recording percussion , youll definitely need one.. ah shit , i think i just talked myself into a change of heart..

if you see yourself recording percussion in the near future , then go with the mixer , if not , then go with the software.. just keep in mind that the preamps on a mackie mixer wont be as transparent or warm as the art..i would go as far as to say to keep the art just for vocals , i hear it works well with the nt1..oh shit , i just changed my mind again... hmmn.. spend the money on the software .. then a few months/weeks down the raod maybe youll have enough money saved to buy the mackie and keep the art tube mp.. ok..i think i conviced myself that thats the better thing to do...

by the way , go to www.sonicfoundry.com and download the demo for vegas , and also go to fasoft.com and download the n track demo..then see which you like more..if you happen to like ntrack more then fuck me and everything ive told you about the mixer/software decision so far.. :)

have fun...
- eddie -
 
KingN,
I have no idea about the 20/20's. Isn't there usually a preamp in the mixer or something? Oh, crap! It's all the little stuff that's gonna get me. Well, it's only money.

Eddie,
Thanks again for the reply. Do you know what KingNothing is talking about? I think I'll get the good software, and keep the art tube mp for vocals if I ever do get a mixer. Or . . . maybe I'll just not buy a car when I get home. hmmmm. Decisions. Anyway, where's your favorite place to shop for all this? I mean, do you buy it all online? I requested a catalogue at Full Compass, and they sent me an email from some rep ready to help me with "whatever." There's also a pretty decent music store where I live, but I'm convinced the people that run it are greedy, slimy, stab-you-in-the-back kind of folks. I dunno. Maybe it's just because every time I went there I could never afford anything . . . till now. What do you think? CyberMan or SlimyMusicStore Guy?
 
Ya. Youre gonna need a power amp to run those monitors. The mixer you were talkin about has no poweramp integrated. It has preamps, yes, but these are for your microphones, and not the monitors. You will need an amp to power those 20/20's. Add that to the total cost, probably at least a couple hundred.
www.8thstreet.com
www.zzounds.com/a--2676837

Both worth lookin into. They seem to have pretty good selection and prices.
 
i thought i posted on this , but my brain is fried..

the events i was speaking of were the powered versions of the 20/20's , i dont know the model # off hand.. and speaking of which , my price for them might be a little shallow..

zzounds and 8th street are both great places , and its the first place i go looking for gear.. full compass is expensive , but their expertise is free.. call them up if you have any questions and then make your purchases elsewhere..

- eddie -
 
I think the powered 20/20 are called "Event 20/20 Bas". I think n-Track will do just fine for you (and just about anyone else for that matter). The version with 24bit support costs $55 and there's a beta version available that supports VST plug-ins. N-Track runs a lot better on NT or W2k than on 95/98 so maybe you want to take that into the budget as well. W2k is really the way to go anyway.

On-line versus off-line shopping - As you live in the US (soon anyway), you don't have to worry about import fees/taxes in most cases and shipping is cheaper than for us bastards who live overseas. Thus, on-line will most likely be cheaper for you. I haven't had a single problem with on-line shopping and I think that if you stick to the larger cyber stores, you should be pretty safe.
 
Okay, folks, I've been doing my homework, and here's what I'm thinking I might get, and where. (Now's the time to stop me if I'm doing something stupid with my money here).

Microphones:
Rode NT-1 $199.00 (zzounds)
Shure SM-57 $77.95 (zzounds)

Mixer:
ART Tube MP $99.95 (zounds)

Software and Hardware:
Gadget labs has a "package" deal with Cakewalk Pro Audio 8 and the Wave/824 sound card: $748.00 (gadgetlabs)

Monitor:
Alesis Monitor One: $299.00 (zzounds)

Reference amplifier:
Servo $259.00 (8th street)

Cables and Rack:
$200 (my local slimeball music store)

Computer and CD-R:
ACER SE Intel Pentium III 650MHz, 128MB, 13GB HD, 4X CD-RW, …………..$999.99 (egghead.com)

Projected total: $2882.89

I figure, this is probably a good way to start, and still leave my options open for future expansion. As I understand it, getting the Wave /824 and Cakewalk will allow me to record more than one track at a time if get a mixer (maybe the Mackie) for my birthday down the road. Let me know if I'm making any big mistakes. Thanks


[This message has been edited by Squashboy (edited 06-15-2000).]
 
Have you read this article? http://www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.nsf/files/ryo2k

As you can see, the specs beyond what's mentioned in the package deal computers are very important. There are tons of good info on what motherboards, hard disks, etc. to get in the "computer recording and soundcards" forum.

You might want to check the Audio DSP24 with ADC/DAC2000 breakout box here: http://www.buydigital.co.kr/digital/english/products_showcase.htm I'm very happy with mine. Combine it with n-Track and you have some $$$ left for beer (or a 19" monitor).

Good luck

/Ola


[This message has been edited by ola (edited 06-15-2000).]
 
Ola,

Okay, so I read the article, and now I'm totally lost. I didn't know I was going to have to make my own computer! In his "digital recording primer" Dragon made it sound like you just have to get at least a certain amount of memory, the right chip, and bingo! You're ready. But I don't even know what DAW stands for. I'm hoping it's not as confusing as it all looks. Maybe I just need to keep surfing before I pick up on all the jargon.

Building a computer sounds incredibly hard to me. Pete Leone, in the article, said the advantages to building your own are that you can customize it for digital audio, and that you can save money. But how customized to I need to be? And how much money? I mean, if I'm only saving a hundred bucks or something, then, heck, I'll just pay it so that I don't have to do it. I'm afraid I'll screw it up anyway. Of course, I do want to do this right. HELP! I need a friend that's a geek! I need to learn the ways of geekdom.


[This message has been edited by Squashboy (edited 06-15-2000).]
 
Who are you calling a geek? Punk! :D

No seriously, it's easier than you think. Maybe the best for you is to specify what parts you want and have the guy at the computer store assemble it for a couple of bucks.

You don't have to build your own computer but the problem with the bundled computers is that they usually have crappy motherboards with dodgy audio and video chips built in. As the motherboard really is the heart of your computer, you want to make sure that it's a good one. The built-in audio/video, apart from being crap quality, can also cause conflicts with your real soundcard regardless of whether you use it or not. It just sits there and causes problems. Also, if you want to upgrade the memory or processor, you might find yourself in a situation where you have to get special, extra expensive, RAM memory (some compaq models) or that you cannot get a faster processor for that motherboard and have to buy a new computer. Also, the hard disk controllers on cheap motherboards can be slow and dodgy so you may hit the limit of your machine earlier than necessary.

So where does this leave you? Step one. Search the "computer recording.." forum for things like "DAW setup", "motherboard" etc. and you'll find lots of info.

If that feels like too much, the article really says it all and below is a distilled version.

Get the following

ABIT BE6-II motherboard $135

Celeron 566 processor in combination with a FCPGA "slocket adapter". As the article says "Be sure to order an adapter made specifically for the Coppermine FCPGA chips: the earlier PPGA adapters will not work and may damage your chip!" If the staff at the computer store don't know what this means, shop elsewhere.
Don't worry about overclocking, you won't need it for quite some time. If you want to, you can get a processor that's pretested to run at 850MHz with extra fans included (here for example http://www.puicorp.com/cpu.htm)but it's not really necessary. But then again, why not while your at it. They're not too expensive. Normal $120 Overclocked with extra fan $220

128Mb of PC 133 CAS 2 RAM. Get the good stuff and don't be tempted to save $7 on getting no-name. Especially not if you're going to overclock. $175

Any floppy drive will do. $20

CD-R/CD-RW Search the "Computer..." forum to see if any brands are preferred. $200 max

Any AGP Graphic card you like. (Almost all graphics cards today are AGP) $100 will get you a long way.

ATA66 7200rpm IDE hard disk drive. As large as you like. When fiddling with digital audio, there's no such thing as enough room. Again, search for recommendations on brands/models. I would even recommend two hard disks. Search the "you should know which by now" forum for reasons and details. 30Gb $250

ATX maxi (or midi) tower case with as large power supply as they have. Usually around 230W but 300W is preferred. $75 max

Windows2000. Because it's so good. Make sure that the soundacrd you get has drivers for Win2000 available. You might have to stick with 98(brrr) for a while. No idea about the price

19" Monitor Big range of prices. About $375

Modem. You can usually get them for free when you subcribe to an ISP.

Gaming soundcard $40 or so.

Total About $1100-$1200 w/o monitor. Sure, it's even more expensive but you'll get a machine that beats the bundeled on with a rake any day. I can assure you that the problems you will have with the bundeled package will not be worth the $100-$200 saving.

The main reason for "rolling your own" is not to save money but to get gear that's good for recording.

OK, you may call me a geek now

/Ola

BTW DAW stands for Digital Audio Workstation.
 
Another motherboard to consider is the Asus P3B-F ($140). This motherboard is considered easier to use than the ABIT BE6-II so you might want to go for it if you feel insecure about this whole "roll your own" deal.

/Ola
 
Ola,
You are the patron Saint of all aspiring Newbies! Thanks for the advice. I will check that out. I promise to continue perusing all the archived wisdom on the "computers . . " forum. Thanks again.
Squashboy
 
I just couldn't see someone go for a package computer when they had managed to come this far. Buying an all-in-one computer is like wetting yourself to keep warm - sure, it's nice in the beginning but you'll soon regret it.

Do some reading in the X forum and you'll feel a lot more secure about building your own computer. I think that researching is a big part of the fun with this hobby.

Good luck and feel free to ask as much as you need.

I realised when I did some more searching that my price estimates was a bit off. Some were higher some lower. I don't do too much shopping in the US so I'm not really up to date with the prices.

/Ola
 
Ola,
I'm still looking into the computer, trying to figure it all out, but I wanted to ask you about another possibility. I don't see a lot of people doing this, and so maybe it's not a good idea, but tell me what you think. What if I spend my money this way?

Alesis Studio Pack
(LX-20 ADAT, Studio 24 Mixer, Nanoverb reverb unit, Nanocompressor compressor, cables and instructional video) $2,099.88 at zzounds

Monitor: Alesis Monitor One $299.00 at zzounds

Reference amplifier: Servo $259.00 at 8th street

Microphone: Rode NT-1 $199.00 at zzounds

Grand total: $2,856.88.

In order to do this I would have to settle for the computer I have now, bringing it home (inconveniently) from China, and using it for non-music purposes. It's NOT a super great computer, but aside from recording, it does most everything I would need. Of course, there's one obvious dilemma I see in the above equation: How do I get all this stuff on CD? I could get one of those Phillips CD burners or something. So tell me, is this just another tempting, but specious option? Is this also like "wetting myself" or is there a viable toilet here?

Always glad to here your advice,
Squashboy
 
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