Advice on recording barbershop quartet

savageblues

New member
Hi folks,

I told my mom I would record her barbershop quartet sometime.

Any suggestions on how I might record them? Here's what I have.

SM57
SM58
ECM8000 x2
MXL V67G
3 Senheisser 825 (like 58's).

Sould I try 4 dynamics?

I supose the best way might be a pair of LDC or MDC? I could look at renting a pair. (Maybe I should bite the bullet and buy another V67M - price is half what I paid for my V67G).

They are pretty experienced singers - but not with using mics. So I think the dynamic route may introduce an un-natural(sp?) element into their performance.

I also thought try to use as dead a recording space as possible. Then again condensers are not very forgiving of bad spaces, and I dont have a very good sound-deadened room.

Thanks in advance!
 
I never have

but this will be fodder for the sharks if it's a sucky idea.
I'd try the 67 right in the middle with everybody the same distance from the mic. (4-5 feet) then EQ high to the right and low to the left.
 
Thanks...I was sort of thinking I might also put the ECM's in x-y behind the 67 just to have something to see if it was worth adding in for stereo.

Hadn't thought of the eq panning - in fact I haven't tried that in any of my mixing yet.
 
8000s are omnis, so x-y won't work for you. Perhaps Jecklin Disk or wide separation (I believe the formula is 3 ft. separation for every foot from source. Someone please confirm?).

8000s are a little light on bass, but that shouldn't be a prob for a Sweet Adelines group.
 
I do this quite a lot- it seems that it is becoming the bulk of my recording, in fact. I'm actually making money with it!

Barbershop is tough to record well, because the sound takes a lot of space in which to develop. Barbershop in a little room, or in a dead room, sounds like dogmeat- and it gets even worse if you try to have them work individually mic'd. The barbershop sound (the "ring" of the chords) only happens when you record the group as an ensemble, and get back away from them enough that all the voices can blend in the space and the overtones can combine. You'll find that if you tried to record them in a dead space, they'd probably have real tuning problems, and would end up hating their performance: most barbershoppers need a pretty live space in order to hear each other properly.

So: with what you've got, I'd probably suggest leaving all the dynamics at home, and use the ECM8000s as a spaced pair. Go someplace that has a nice sounding room (small churches are easy to find, and are usually pretty cooperative), and do it there. You'll have to do a lot of experimenting with mic placement in order to get a sound that will please them. I'll guarantee that whatever sound you like, they probably won't: you'll need to try to capture a very honest representation of what it sounded like _to them_, and that will just take time to learn. You'll almost certainly have to go to a venue where it'll work.

My house has a high, vaulted ceiling in the entry foyer, living room and dining room areas (a very open plan), and that is just barely enough space to make it work- we picked it so that we could record barbershop in it. When I'm doing a quartet these days, I'll usually set up a pair of TLM103s as an ORTF pair, and I back them away from the quartet a good 6-8 feet. I'll then hang a pair of MC012s, also set up in ORTF, back about 15 feet away and up about 8 feet high, to get room ambience and those elusive overtones. I'll usually spend at least a couple of hours with them, experimenting with mic placement and their performance position, until everyone is comfortable... I'll then mix the 4 tracks down to stereo, almost always dead flat: usually, the ambient pair is down 18-20dB lower than the front pair, but there are no rules. You balance the crispness and sizzle of the close pair with the airy, overtone-heavy ambient pair: mix to taste.

I also occasionally use my Studio Products C3 and one of the TLM103s as an M-S pair for the close mics: on some groups that sounds better, gets more of the room ambience, and has a more solid center to the stereo image. For that, I use less of the ambient pair. It just depends on the voices.

You'll have to work very hard to get the ambient noise down, even in a church. When recording at home, I kill the breakers for the furnace and for the fridge, and get the noise floor down to just the wind outside. The last church venue I used, the noise floor was dominated by the pump that recirculated the water in the baptismal fount- drove me _nuts_. Barbershoppers love to hear the room's reverb decay naturally wiht the last chord in the tag, and if it decays down into the hum of a fridge, you can bet your buns that you're going to hear about it!

A capella barbershop vocal work is a very dynamic acoustic art form. The key to recording it well is to treat it as classical music, like a string quartet. If you try to turn it into rock, closemicing or making them work with individual mics, you'll iron the life right out of it...

In my opinion, anyway. Hope that helps!
 
Skippy

Many thanks. Many good suggestions. You've made it much easier for me to get a professional sounding recording. Much more difficult to acheive, of course!

I think I can handle this - although placing the mics to their pleasure could be the hardest part of all. I do have one thing in my favour though, I'm doing it as a favour so they cant bitch too much about things.

I doubt I will find a really nice pair of condensers for rent easily.

I need to find out what ORTF and M-S placement is...
 
Ooops. Sorry about that. ORTF is done with a pair of cardioids spaced 7-8" apart, and splayed 110deg: it is an effort to mimic the human hearing mechanism, with spacing between the diaphragms. It provides better stereo imaging than XY (two cardioids splayed 90deg, with the diaphragms in the closest possible contact). XY is coincident (intensity) stereo only. ORTF has both intensity and phase information, which is why the imaging is better. It gets its name from the French national radio network- they invented it...

M-S is mid-side: it is a coincident technique where a single cardioid is faced straight up the middle, and a figure-8 is faced _sideways_ (perpendicular to the axis of the cardioid middle mic). The signals are then added together with a matrix, to produce right and left signals. The matrix takes the signal from the side mic and adds it to the signal from the middle mic to get the right channel, and _subtacts_ the side mic from the middle mic to get the left. This works because the two lobes of the figure-8 mic are out of phase with each other: a positive pressure on one side of the mic produces a positive signal, whereas the same positive pressure on the other side produces an _negative_ signal.

Anyway, by varying the gain of the side mic's preamp, you can vary the stereo image width- from flat mono to artificially wide stereo. You also get a lot more of the room's sound than you do with either XY or ORTF, so this is most applicable to really good-sounding rooms. With a good room and a good quartet, it can _kill_!

With your omnis, you'll need to space them quite a distance apart, so you'll definitely have a lot of phase information there- you'll need to listen carefully to keep from having objectionable phase cancellation and comb filtering. The 3:1 rule applies, just as Dafduc said: when you hang spaced omnis (or any multiple mic arrangement), make sure that the "other" mic is at least 3 times as far from your source as the "main" mike. This will help avoid comb filtering. So if I were going to do this, I'd probably have the quartet set up in their usual semicircle, and I'd place one mic 5 feet off one end, the other one 5 feet off the other end, and make sure that the mics are about 15 feet apart- but just play with the placement until you like the sound. There are no real rules, 3:1 notwithstanding...

You have to just try it: preferably while they are warming up!

I just did the CD for the Skyline Chorus (6th place at the Sweet Adelines International contest this year), and it was a hoot. That's available now, but the first run of 1000 is about to sell out... When it comes time for you to do the whole chorus, give a yell!
 
Amen to what Skippy has told you.

I belong to two different men's barbershop chapters and when
they want a quick recording of their rehearsal, I just grab an
omni condenser and use the best room available.
With one omni you can have them circle it and that makes mike
placement much easier. For a quality demo on up though, do what
Skippy says. I've heard my chapter members recorded on 4 different dynamic microphones for their quartets and it sounded lousy! The top quartets makes their release level recordings in a
good studio with two condenser microphones (stereo) normally.

Good luck!
Chris
 
Hi there Skippy, I just read your post. I have a male barbershop quartet of my own. We have tried several techniques.. I am also starting work as a freelance choir recording engineer.. Though, I could use some pointers on choir recording.
I have the following mics:
EMC-8000 - pair
MXL V63 LD Condensor
and 3 58-style dynamics.
& planning to get a pair of the C4's before I record the next choir

I use a Behringer 802A mixer that has 4 mic pres. and a Roland VS-880 for my recorder. I am recording primarily in live rooms with choirs of 20 to 80 members. I know that is a big difference in #'s but that's freelance :D
I was hoping to get some advise on recording the choirs. Churches and concert halls will be my main sound stage BTW.

Last time I recorded I used the V63 as a center Mic and placed it about 9 ft up and 8 ft out from the center of the choir so as to get the men's voices (they had a VERY small guy's (T&B) section) and I used the ECM's about 20 feet out from the back of the stage (the choir was on risers) and pointed straight ahead 25' apart or so. The risers came around towards each ECm and were 8 ft away at the ends. I was happy with the over all stereo presence/control that the 3 mics gave me. I just wonder if using the C4's in a different config. could have been better. This particular concert was in a horribly acoustical auditorium.. about 100 ft wide at the back and 50 at teh front of the stage. with a 20' ceiling throughout.. it has NO acoustical properties OR treatment .. the ceiling is rafters and the roof is a arched steel canopy.. which is about another 10 - 15 ft above teh ceiling..and the stage head room is only 15' with SOUND ABSORBING curtains hanging from the ceiling.. (rafters above that) .. so overall the room was dead. I got no room reflections/reverb back into any of the mics (even the ECM's)

If you have any suggestions on Babershop recording with the particular mics I have (or will be getting (ala C4) ) then please feel free to share your experience.

sorry for the long post.. if you feel that this is out of context for this thread please feel free to start another thread or email me.

ZPphreak@thesaltines.com

-thanks,
Brent
 
Off-topic? Naahhh. I think this is a pretty good topic for the forum, because it really deals in a very basic way with the differences between LD and SD designs. I'm hoping Harvey will see this and chime in, because I'd *really* like to learn some more of what he knows about this particular application!

You'll probably find the C4s to be very useful- I don't know much about them, other than the fact that they are small-diaphragm. For large group recording like this, I'll always favor SD condensors over pretty much any LD design. The reason for that is simple: most LD condensors sound funny off axis. Their polar patterns are wierd *by design*, with spikes here and suckouts there, so that you can get completely different sounds by just changing the axis of the mic with respect to the sound source. This is *great* with a point source, but not as great with a distributed source like a large chorus: some fraction of the chorus will always be standing in a suckout, and if you have a powerful tenor standing in a spike location it'll just take the paint off the walls: all the director's careful vocal placement goes right out the window. It's really hard to get a consistently-usable sound with LDs for big groups, like the 150 voices that make up Skyline.

The TLM103s are just about the best affordable LD design for smoothness and consistency off-axis, which is why I like them in a pair for doing a quartet. They have a very nice top end that seems to complement most female barbershop voices, and no really big spikes or suckouts to piss you off. I also have a pair of Rode NT2s, and it's kind of funny to try to use them for the same application: they have a midrange suckout at about 45deg off-axis that makes the baritone just disappear, if they are standing in the wrong orientation- or to hear the bari appear and disappear as they move around during the song. *Aggravating*. No way I'd try to use those for a chorus...

So when it is time to do a chorus, I use Oktava MC012s. I always seem to err on the side of conservative, so I'll hang 4 or 6 of them as essentially section overheads, and I'll hang another pair set up as an ORTF pair about 2 feet behind the director, and about 4 feet over their head. In a good room, the mix usually ends up being 90% that ORTF pair, with just enough of the section mics pulled in to add some crispness to the articulation (and get those great ballad-breath inhalation sounds before the tune starts!).

I used to do the ORTF pair just as a safety (and track it to a different recorder) so that if something died, I'd get _something_ out of the session. But I always seem to end up going back to it as the main track. It's amazing to watch how a good chorus director reacts to the sound of that pair, because that very closely approximates what they were hearing during the take. At mix time I'll often submix the overheads to a pair of faders, and label them "body", route the ORTF pair to a a pair of faders and label them "air", and then just let the director play around until they get exactly what they like. It's consistent as heck, even with directors who aren't recording-techie types: they'll always trade off body for air... Let them experiment, and you can learn _volumes_ by watching: they know exactly what they want to hear.

For any of this, though, the room is absolutely crucial. You can't get a good sound in a bad room, and no amount of knobtwisting can help it. The ideal setup is to get into a good sounding room, put the mics where they sound good, track them flat, mix them flat, and print it! In a good room, all you have to do is the old Hippocratic thing: "do no harm". In a bad room, it's just not going to happen... Usually, the performance suffers as well, because the room ambience is critical for barbershoppers to be able to tune properly. The tuning parts (bari and tenor) have _got_ to be able to fit themselves into the sound, and if they can't hear properly, it's just downright tragic.

The 012s are very useful for live work with these groups, as well. Skyline does a Christmas show every year with a local 7-piece Dixieland band, and they do one tune together. Trying to get the chorus to balance with the trumpet, bone, and tuba honking along is a pretty good challenge... For that, I hang my usual section overheads, but I use the hypercardioid capsules, angled away from the center of the stage where the band is. That lets me grab the chorus and pull them up a tad bit without blasting even more of the instrumentalists into the room... Good fun.

Hey, Harvey (and any of you other good knowledgeable types): let's hear more!
 
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