ACID support for external controllers/faders?

[protech]

Hi

Can any sussgest external control surfaces that will work with ACID 7?

I know there are loads out there, but its there a list of which ones are supported or can anyone suggest models they know will work?

I have Presonus Fader port but it does not work with ACID 7 so I am looking for a replacement.

Anyone use external controlers with ACID?

Cheers fellas!

PT

 

[Tom Overthere]

AN ONLINE ACID7 BROTHER (I can hardly believe I found one)

Protech ==

Reference my recent post on Sony's Acid User forum: HERE

I really like the Korg nanoKONTROL for general DAW control, and the Korg padKONTROL for drums and more. The pK pads can also control DAW operations, as they can be assigned to either Midi Note values or Continuous Control (CC) values.

As you'll see in my Sony post, Acid hardware control is lagging badly when variable CC values are involved (where the value ranges from 0-127 as used to move a fader or pan knob). Sony tech support replied to me today, suggesting I turn off all the crap that resides in my Windows XP startup. I tried that and it helped a lot. I had to ask for more info, but if the problem really does turn out to be not enough computer, I think I'm destined to build a new, modern, multi-core PC with at least 4mb of ram.

For the record, my PC is a stabile old Pentium4 at 2.53GHz, with just 1GB of ram. If yours is a newer multicore with more ram, you might not experience my problem at all (that is, IF my problem is due to old hardware rather than Acid 7 issues).

You can get the nanoKONTROL on Amazon for $55, shipped free. 9 faders, 9 knobs, 18 buttons - and you can program them to function in several different ways (toggle, momentary, fade-up/fade-down, etc). Beyond that, you can switch among four onboard scenes, and an infinite number of scenes you've stored on your harddrive. The padKONTROL is comparable in terms of versatility and available for $149 via Amazon or NovaMusik. Both provide excellent value. Don't buy these used unless you can test them first-hand (just trust me on that).

I suggest you look up Stray411 on YouTube and watch his videos on nanoKONTROL and padKONTROL. And visit his nativeKONTROL website to watch his product videos. It's a good basic education on what you can do with these relatively simple midi controllers.


EDITED: See image below. The Presonus Fader Port driver appears in my Acid 7 Available Devices, but I don't have one. I do use a Presonus Firestudio Project firewire interface, so maybe it originates from there...

In any case, be sure you install drivers for yours. You should be able to set it up as a Generic Control Device, assigning fader and other controllers to operate on the active Audio Channel. You'll need to set that device's Number of Channels for the maximum number of channels you intend to control via hardware. IIRC, the Faderport controls only a single track, so you'll need to set up buttons for Channels > Channel Up and Channels > Channel Down to adjust which audio channel is active. CONSULT YOUR .PDF MANUAL

 

[Bristol Posse]

Officially supported (and covered in the AP7 Manual)

Mackie Control universal
frontier designs Tranzport
Behringer BCF2000 in Mackie emulation mode

I am currently running 2 x BCF 2000 via USB in Mackie Emulation and have had zero problems and was up and running in under 10 minutes

I was also able to get both units on eBay for under $150 total.
BCF 2000 is under $200 brand new so either way is excellent value and does exactly what it says, gives you motorized faders, mutes, pan pots and transport controls.
That's all I really need. Mackie is far more complex but to my set up unecessary.

 

[Tom Overthere]

1. Behringer BCF2000 in Mackie emulation mode

2. I am currently running 2 x BCF 2000 via USB in Mackie Emulation and have had zero problems and was up and running in under 10 minutes

3. ...gives you motorized faders, mutes, pan pots and transport controls.

4. Mackie is far more complex but to my set up unecessary.

Items 1, 2, 4: So are you locked in to running the BCF2000 in Mackie Emulation, or can you map cc (or midi note) values from the BCF2000 to Acid via a general device template?

Item 3: I've heard that BCF2000 motorized faders die an early death. Can you provide further insight?

 

[Bristol Posse]

Items 1, 2, 4: So are you locked in to running the BCF2000 in Mackie Emulation, or can you map cc (or midi note) values from the BCF2000 to Acid via a general device template?

Item 3: I've heard that BCF2000 motorized faders die an early death. Can you provide further insight?

You don't have to use in Mackie Emulation mode. If you prefer you can set up your own custom settings using the generic MIDI controller profiles and using MIDI learn etc so it can be as versatile as you want.

I have had no problem with the faders/Motors thus far. Both of my units I got used off eBay and craigslist. One of them I know for sure had more than a year of use before I got my hands on it and I have used for a further 6 months.

I can say that I could see problems if you do a lot of "touch" fader automation the faders do fight back a little in touch mode. I tend to use "latch" settings until I get the performance I want and then only have need for very few "touch" corrections afterwards.

The motors are not Silent but I do not find the minor motor noise a problem or distraction even with 2 units running at the same time and for under 80 bucks a piece I don't think I could do any better at all and if one breaks well so be it I'll spring onother 80 bucks for another used one. Price to funtionality wise I could see no reason for the few extra (and to me at least unecessary/Inexplicable) functions that I would have to pay 20 times the cost for 16 channels of Mackie control surface.

Personally I love my BCFs They make the mixing process faster, more musical and I'm able to look away from the screen and use my ears rather than my eyes

 

[Tom Overthere]

Excellent.

I agree that the BCF2000 vs. the Mackie is a no-brainer. I looked long and hard at the BCR2000 without faders due to 'fadercide' rumors. If I found a deal like yours, I'd buy one right now.

QUESTION: Is it possible to turn off the automation in hardware, and use those nice faders just to transmit CC information (so the motors aren't working/fighting back)?

Still, the Korg nanoKONTROL is a lot of capability for $55. The faders at extremely short-throw (maybe 1/4 of yours) and when I shift from channel group to channel group it can be pretty confusing as the hw fader positions no longer relate to currently selected sw faders. But I'm figuring it out. I think some BIG changes are coming re. hardware control surfaces, so like you, I'm glad to have inexpensive options to hold me for now.

Check THIS out for an unusual application of two BCRs and one BCF unit.

And THIS one, too.

Yikes,
Tom

 

[Bristol Posse]

Those are pretty cool
It's nice to see another active AP user out there, we are a rare breed it seems

If I come accross any BCF deals in my eBay travels I'll let you know

 

[Tom Overthere]

Thanks a lot for offering assistance in locating used BCR/BCF2000s.

And yeah, I was really surprised to find NO Acid Pro user forums, or any chatter on general purpose music boards. Over at GearSlutz they act like I'm a nitwit for not using Ableton or one of the other Currently Cool Crop.

I bought Acid because I've been using SoundForge for about a decade and needed to update my multitrack app from SAW32 (a dinosaur). Also, I just obtained Vegas Pro 9, and the user interfaces / general approach taken by all three apps is similar enough to lessen my learning curve headaches.

BTW, I ask an occassional Q at Sony's own Acid forum, but not much happening there, the Moderators hardly ever show up, and there's no email notification, so I tend to lose track of what I've posted...

I'm learning Acid 7 top to bottom, and think it's GREAT though I do have a few "issues" with it...


DO YOU KNOW IF IT'S POSSIBLE TO SHUT OFF THE BCF FADER MOTORS (in the hardware itself)?
Sorry to yell. Just wanted to get your attention.
Tom

 

[Bristol Posse]

DO YOU KNOW IF IT'S POSSIBLE TO SHUT OFF THE BCF FADER MOTORS (in the hardware itself)?

I don't believe so
You can use them just for level setting (no automation) in which case they are off but as soon as you turn on the units automation mode motors are engaged

And yeah, I was really surprised to find NO Acid Pro user forums, or any chatter on general purpose music boards. Over at GearSlutz they act like I'm a nitwit for not using Ableton or one of the other Currently Cool Crop.

I bought Acid because I've been using SoundForge for about a decade and needed to update my multitrack app from SAW32 (a dinosaur). Also, I just obtained Vegas Pro 9, and the user interfaces / general approach taken by all three apps is similar enough to lessen my learning curve headaches.

yeah I got into it a couple of years ago now. I got Sony because it was the only company I'd heard of. As it turned out I got pro tools and Ableton free with my audio interface but I couldn't figure either of them out and Acid "just worked" immediately for me and so far I haven't found anything I cant do with it

 

[Tom Overthere]

I don't believe so
You can use them [faders] just for level setting (no automation) in which case they are off but as soon as you turn on the units automation mode motors are engaged

Sorry to be obtuse, but I have zero experience with BCF2000. Am I understanding you to say the following:
When you power on the unit, there is an additional button/setting for engaging the automation mode (and its motors). So the BCF2000 can be ON/running, but it's automation can be switched OFF so the faders just manually adjust Acid virtual faders in real time.

ALSO, assuming the answer to the Q above is 'yes', I have related question.
With Acid 7 Latch Automation turned ON, does the BCF2000 hardware automation have to be switched ON in order for the hardware to control the software? Or can I move Acid virtual faders in Latch Automation mode (and thereby create track volume envelopes by using the BCF2000 faders without their motors engaged?

...Acid "just worked" immediately for me and so far I haven't found anything I cant do with it

For the most part, Ditto. I come from open-reel tape and mixing consoles, and I find Acid 7--with the addition of its new Mixer window--to be an excellent analogy for 'traditional' studio gear. In fact, it constitutes about $200,000 worth of the gear I always wanted (unlimited recorder tracks, unlimited mixer channel strips with unlimited effects sends, bus sends, channel inserts, tons of digital 'outboard' effects, mixer automation to die for, etc, etc etc.) Minimal electrical useage and almost nothing to dust/clean/maintain.


Something Acid can't do: Ableton and all the current crop provide for send/receive between any two tracks. That's particularly useful for sidechain effects techniques where the signal on one track affects the signal on at least one other track. Examples are using a voiceover on track A to compress a music bed on track B, giving the voice 'aural space' and avoiding a cluttered mix. Or using a bass drum on track A to compress a bass guitar on track B to create some punch between the two. I can't understand why Sony would leave out such a necessary capability (no track-to-track send/receive and no side-chain capable compressor effect included...)

 

[Bristol Posse]

When you power on the unit, there is an additional button/setting for engaging the automation mode (and its motors). So the BCF2000 can be ON/running, but it's automation can be switched OFF so the faders just manually adjust Acid virtual faders in real time.

Yes correct there is a key press on the unit to turn on automation. until that point you are just adjuting levels as if you were sliding the mouse over the faders on screen without the automation engaged in ACID

With Acid 7 Latch Automation turned ON, does the BCF2000 hardware automation have to be switched ON in order for the hardware to control the software? Or can I move Acid virtual faders in Latch Automation mode (and thereby create track volume envelopes by using the BCF2000 faders without their motors engaged?

No. Turning on automation on in an acid track is the same as turning automation on at the unit. At that point automation is engaged and you would writing a volume envelope so faders would now be motorized. however in latch mode you are completely re doing the envelope each time so the faders are not reading any previous envelope. In touch mode you are editing a previous envelope so it is reading and writing.

Something Acid can't do: Ableton and all the current crop provide for send/receive between any two tracks. That's particularly useful for sidechain effects techniques where the signal on one track affects the signal on at least one other track. Examples are using a voiceover on track A to compress a music bed on track B, giving the voice 'aural space' and avoiding a cluttered mix. Or using a bass drum on track A to compress a bass guitar on track B to create some punch between the two. I can't understand why Sony would leave out such a necessary capability (no track-to-track send/receive and no side-chain capable compressor effect included...)

Sidechaining can be done through bus routing Similar to hardware. It needs a sidechain capable plug, I use the C1 compressor/compander from Waves since it allows side chain compression, gating and EQ

To to Bass ducking from the Kick drum, route a copy Kick drum hard panned left to bus A, route the Bass guitar hard panned right to bus A. Insert C1 and set it so that left channel triggers compression on the right channel. The C1 only outputs the compressed/effected channel and only uses the trigger signal internally in sidechained mode.
I then Route Bus A, who's output is now a right, hard panned ducking bass to my outboard summing mixer that I mix through and re center the Bass which is now ducking with the Kick drum..
If you were doing the summing in ACID, you'd have see what happens if you pan the output of the bass on Bus A to recenter, it's probably workable since the faders and pan pots are post FX or failing that, set up another bus (Bus B)and Route the hard panned ducking bass from Bus A to Bus B and recenter it there.
With Stereo instruments youd need to do the operation twice once for left and once for right channels. It's a little more laborious than just track to track routing but once you're used to it a no brainer. I use it all the time.

 

[Tom Overthere]

Thanks for all the information.

Too bad Acid Automation forces engagement of the hardware fader automation. Still, as you mentioned in your first post, the latch mode works for basic mixing, and then I might just draw any adjustments into the track volume envelopes using a mouse. A tremendous level of control that way.

Thanks for your Sidechain workaround. I beat my head against the Acid wall for several days (off and on) trying to get there, but never did - perhaps because I was not willing to include outboard hardware in the chain. I'll sit down and study your instructions later when I have time, but whether or not I implement them, Acid could and should make such contortions unnecessary by including the rather basic capabilities outlined above.

HERE is a fantastic plugin for about $20 that does the job in Acid (SideKick4 by Twisted Lemon, Netherlands) but is not available for Windows 7 yet. When it is, I'll buy it, but then (of course) Sony will make the same thing available for FREE (story of my life)

 

[Tom Overthere]

...I then Route Bus A, who's output is now a right, hard panned ducking bass to my outboard summing mixer that I mix through and re center the Bass which is now ducking with the Kick drum.

That's the part where I hit the wall. I couldn't find a way to pan the affected Bus A to center again. And I no longer have a hardware mixer to employ for such things. Sony has resource$ out the wazoo, so this particular software capability should magically appear in version 8, if not sooner (I hope).

Did you check out SideKick4? It's exactly what's needed, but only if you're running in 32-bit. The SK4 creator has a little user forum set up on his site, but hasn't posted re. Win7 progress for weeks now.

 

[Bristol Posse]

That's the part where I hit the wall. I couldn't find a way to pan the affected Bus A to center again. And I no longer have a hardware mixer to employ for such things. Sony has resource$ out the wazoo, so this particular software capability should magically appear in version 8, if not sooner (I hope).

Yeah It actually works out ideally for me since in order to route a mono track such as bass or vox to my external summing mixer I have to hard pan anyway (since the output busses are all stereo and I only want to send a single channel in the case of mono to the summing box)


Summing in software I'd try
Changing the pan law on Bus A to either add channels or full power and see if that allows you to recenter in software> panning and volume should be post FX so shouldn't impact what the plugin does
If that doesn't work
Set up a second bus and route bus a to bus b (bus to bus routing is allowed) and then pan bus b to your hearts content
and finally if that doesn't work
Export/print the ducking track and convert to mono (assuming that you're happy with the kick drum and don't expect any changes)

But yeah it could be simpler. Maybe I'll start a thread over at Sony's forums

Did you check out SideKick4? It's exactly what's needed, but only if you're running in 32-bit. The SK4 creator has a little user forum set up on his site, but hasn't posted re. Win7 progress for weeks now.

Have you taken a look at JBridge (google it) it's a bit bridge that allows 32 bit plugs to operate in a 64 bit OS. It's not perfect but a lot of stuff can be made to work until full 64 bit versions are available.
Going to take a look at sidekick tonight. I'm not generally using sidechaining much on stereo tracks but it's nice to have the option if I need it

 

[Tom Overthere]

Excellent follow up. I'll be a'twiddlin' over the weekend thanks to your insights.

And thanks for the heads up on JBridge. I will try to avoid that if possible, only because I have not a learning curve but a learning mountain range - Acid 7, SoundForge 10, Vegas 9 and Native Instruments Komplete6 - not mention all the MIDI interoperability issues (God help us! ). I'm new to all except SF, so any 'variables' I can avoid will be avoided. I'll limp along on my current XP Pro 32-bit machine for the next several months, and hopefully everything I need will be ready for Win7 64-bit by the time I build a new PC.


If you see any red flags re SideKick4 please sound off. I would love to be able to sidechain for ducking compression and for creative keying effects, so ah needz it bad!. Your comments are much appreciated.

I'm VERY GLAD to finally bump into a knowledgeable Acid 7 user. I was beginning to see Ableton Live looming in my future, but I really want to stay "all Sony" at this point.

 

[Bristol Posse]

I got sidekick last night. I have some scratch tracks I'll be working on over the weekend so I'll try it out for kicks and giggles with these and report back.

Keep an open mind to JBridge. a lot of the plugin makers are way behind the curve on 64 bit, understandable I guess since it requires complete recoding but still frustrating. Afterall this is their sole reason to be in many cases, 64 bit compatability is what many customers want and 64 bit is hardly a new concept at this point. Any way the point is with the pace *some* plugin outfits move (shakes fist at Waves), even if you wait 6 months to upgrade to 64 bit, you may still need a bit bridge to run many plugs.

I'm with you on sticking to Sony. The consistency between products is really good and it's nice to be able to go back and forth between Vegas, SF and ACID and not have to completely reinvent the wheel each time

As far as learning ACID goes my advice as a still fairly new recordist myself (20 months) is "Just assume you can" and then figure it out.
In a way, I think I was fortunate to not really come to the online recording forums until I'd already been using ACID for a few months, and had already figured out a lot of funtionality and tricks on my own without any preconceptions because I hadn't read all the depressing and misleading "ACIDs just a looping tool"; "ACIDs not a real DAW"; "ACID can't do sidechaining"; "ACID doesn't work welll with outboard"; "ACID isn't stable with UAD Cards"; etc myths that seem to be prevelant out here in the interwebs. While this was quite possibly true in version 4 or 5 several years ago, it's clearly, at least from my experience, not the case now

Anyway feel free to give me a shout if you run into any ACID issues and I'll be happy to see if I can help out

 

[Tom Overthere]

I concur regarding the mostly unfounded "crippled Acid" rumors online. My first Acid is v7 and I'm amazed at its depth of capability and ease of use (in most respects).

I am looking into JBridge per your comments. Does Acid 7 provide built-in support?
Quote from jBridge site: "note: hosts with built-in support for jBridge don’t require any additional setup step or the use of the jBridger tool, as they will automatically detect and use jBridge if needed."


I assume you'll be testing SideKick4 on a Win7 64-bit machine. ALSO, if you will entertain a request, will you try to run SideKick in 64-bit without jBridge? That would give the true indication of whether it works with Acid at x64.


In case you didn't already discover it, HERE's a link to the Twisted Lemon forum discussion of Win7 64-bit issues. Note the hapless 'beta testers' are using Cubase, Ableton and Adobe Premier. Maybe, maybe, maybe Acid 7 does not suffer in this same regard...maybe...

 

[Bristol Posse]

I concur regarding the mostly unfounded "crippled Acid" rumors online. My first Acid is v7 and I'm amazed at its depth of capability and ease of use (in most respects).

I am looking into JBridge per your comments. Does Acid 7 provide built-in support?
Quote from jBridge site: "note: hosts with built-in support for jBridge don’t require any additional setup step or the use of the jBridger tool, as they will automatically detect and use jBridge if needed."


I assume you'll be testing SideKick4 on a Win7 64-bit machine. ALSO, if you will entertain a request, will you try to run SideKick in 64-bit without jBridge? That would give the true indication of whether it works with Acid at x64.


In case you didn't already discover it, HERE's a link to the Twisted Lemon forum discussion of Win7 64-bit issues. Note the hapless 'beta testers' are using Cubase, Ableton and Adobe Premier. Maybe, maybe, maybe Acid 7 does not suffer in this same regard...maybe...

OK so I got the trial version of it to run as follows:

XP 32 bit ran fine
W7 32 bit ran Fine
W7 using a bitbridge seemed buggy, was able to get 1 instance to run but I think it would probably make things unstable (Bear in mind ACID is a 32 bit app so has to run in WoW 32 bit emulation to start with)

I don't think the guys on his forum were using a bit bridge at all from what I got from their posts.

Seems like he's working on 64 bit compatability though.

For now however, I'm sticking with what I do with Bus routing and the C1 from waves for sidechaining as it working flawlessly for me

 

[Tom Overthere]

Thanks for the report.

So SideKick4.1 demo ran fine in XP 32bit and Win7 32bit, but not in Win7 64bit. That's as expected.

I didn't realize Acid was not true 64bit yet...

QUESTION Since you've been running Acid 6/7 for a while, I figure you might have a strong opinion on this:
My PC is a strong-but-dated Pentium4 2.53GHz (single core) with only 1GB of RAM. If you were me, would you:
a) Increase RAM to 2GB (max for MB) and add a second SATA I hard drive, or
b) Wait a couple of months and build a totally new PC based on Intel i7 and 4GB+ of RAM?
I haven't installed my NI Komplete6 or Vegas9 or SF10 because I figure they'll overwhelm my current system. But I can't really afford all new hardware now. If it were you, would just go ahead and install the apps? Or upgrade the P4 XP a little and then install the apps? Or bag the XP, hold off on installing the apps and build a modern PC in a couple of months?


There was a like-new BCR2000 on Ebay, near enough for me to drive over and pick it up. Sold for $87.50 earlier today. I studied the BCR and BCF online per your comments, and would like to have bought that one, but at $90, the security of buying new starts tugging at me. Also, I'll be very surprised if we don't see a slew of new, multi-function MIDI/USB control surfaces in the next year - from Behringer and others.

I like the BCR and BCF a lot, but for now, I'll just learn to wring every bit of capability out of my nanoKontrol. I just wish I could understand why variable CC response [faders, knobs, envelopes] is so blasted SLW in Acid... NI Kore2 demo responds instantly to nanoKontrol knobs and faders...

 

[Bristol Posse]

Thanks for the report.

So SideKick4.1 demo ran fine in XP 32bit and Win7 32bit, but not in Win7 64bit. That's as expected.

I didn't realize Acid was not true 64bit yet...

QUESTION Since you've been running Acid 6/7 for a while, I figure you might have a strong opinion on this:
My PC is a strong-but-dated Pentium4 2.53GHz (single core) with only 1GB of RAM. If you were me, would you:
a) Increase RAM to 2GB (max for MB) and add a second SATA I hard drive, or
b) Wait a couple of months and build a totally new PC based on Intel i7 and 4GB+ of RAM?
I haven't installed my NI Komplete6 or Vegas9 or SF10 because I figure they'll overwhelm my current system. But I can't really afford all new hardware now. If it were you, would just go ahead and install the apps? Or upgrade the P4 XP a little and then install the apps? Or bag the XP, hold off on installing the apps and build a modern PC in a couple of months?


There was a like-new BCR2000 on Ebay, near enough for me to drive over and pick it up. Sold for $87.50 earlier today. I studied the BCR and BCF online per your comments, and would like to have bought that one, but at $90, the security of buying new starts tugging at me. Also, I'll be very surprised if we don't see a slew of new, multi-function MIDI/USB control surfaces in the next year - from Behringer and others.

I like the BCR and BCF a lot, but for now, I'll just learn to wring every bit of capability out of my nanoKontrol. I just wish I could understand why variable CC response [faders, knobs, envelopes] is so blasted SLW in Acid... NI Kore2 demo responds instantly to nanoKontrol knobs and faders...

Hey Tom Overthere. Check your Private Messages