Accurately Capturing Distorted/Chunky Guitar

disgruntled-inc

disgruntled-inc

Detachable Member
My guitarist plays very much in the vein of Dimebag Darrell and Zakk Wylde. Lots of distortion, lots of chunk. I am having a hell of time capturing that sound while leaving sonic space for bass and kick drum. His low end drowns everything out, and then if I roll off too much during mixing, it sounds very thin, almost Randy Rhodes like, but not in a great way.

The biggest issue is capturing his Les Paul Studio (is that the one with the pick guard?). He plays through a Line 6 Flextone II HD head, and we are running left and right mono to two slant 4x12 Flextone II Cabs (to accurately capture stereo chorus and delay).

Currently I am using a Sennheiser e609 Silver on each cab, just slightly off center of the cone and right up on the grill. I have been recording the signal dry, but I am considering adding a compressor and possibly a parametric EQ before the A/D to try and tame the signal a bit more. I have also considered switching to a large diaphragm condenser on each cab, something like a Studio Projects C1 or an AKG Perception 220.

Any tips, tricks, thoughts, or suggestions as to different mics, micing/EQ techniques, or any ideas would be most appreciated. I just want to grab his sound as accurately as possible while leaving room for everyone else.

-Wes
 
My advice would be to ditch that Line6 amp altogether, and get something a little more recording friendly.

here's my point: i just had a band roll through about two weeks ago, and the guitarist was playing his Ibanez through that exact amp, into a 1960b marshall flat. i couldn't get that amp to sound good, and i took 3 hours trying to. i finally gave up and plugged in my dual rectifier, and bingo. after 5 minutes of re-positioning, it lined up just right, and there it was. a huge open dynamic tone. lesson learned i guess...

another thing to think about if that isn't an option is to

a. play your guitarist in a LARGE room, one that's not a bedroom. your amps have to "speak" with the room.
b. try placing your 609 FURTHER away, im talking like, 5-10 inches from the grille cloth. in the past i've found that the closer i am, the bassier and less tight the cabinet will sound. (proximity effect)
c. lose some of that gain. you don't need as much as you think you will on a recording. on my dual rec, i try to keep it under 12:00. use your master volume for your "gain" if using a tube amp. (doesn't apply to the Line6 as i think that's a solid state.)

hope that helped a little. if all else fails, go direct with a pod.
 
I've personally never recorded an amp that an SM57 couldn't capture faithfully...my opinion is that if it doesn't sound right with an SM57 in a good place then the problem is with the amp/guitar/playing...
 
.guitar said:
my opinion is that if it doesn't sound right with an SM57 in a good place then the problem is with the amp/guitar/playing...
Click to expand...

Agreed. It may sound better with something else, but if a SM57 on the grill, double-tracked, doesn't get you something that's at least pretty good, look elsewhere.

How's he EQ'ing his amp? Based on the players and your description, I'm guessing the bass and treble are pretty high, gain is at or near the max, and the mids are cut?

Try this - roll the gain back to anywhere from 4-6, depending on the model. Drop the bass to 4-ish, mids at 6, and treble 4-6 as well, to taste. I have NO idea how this is going to work because I don't know what amp model he's going into and how faithfully Line6 captured it, but I'm betting he's scooping the crap out of his tone, which translates to boomy low end and shrill highs that'll get lost in the cymbals.

Likewise, without exception, every "high gain" line 6 model I've ever played has been over-distorted, with noticably more gain than the original is capable of. This is especially true of the "Insane" model on their Spyder series, which is laughably oversaturated.
 
post a clip...

this discussion will be difficult w/o clips and getting a good distorted gtr track can be challenging

post a DI, I'd like to try a re-amp.
 
EVERYTHING YOU COULD EVER WANT TO KNOW ABOUT DISTORTED GUITAR RECORDING.


The short version, turn down the gain, and turn up the amp.


The long version should keep you busy for the next, oh,year or twenty - depending on how much time you spend trying to recreate what he is saying.


Seriously, a link to Slipperman's rant should be a sticky on the top of any forum about recording electric guitars.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Ha! Awesome link, I had actually just stumbled accross that through Gear Slutz.

So rough tracks can be heard on MySpace, www.myspace.com/hyakro. I'll see if I can get some DI'd stuff pulled together for people to play with.

Thanks for the tips guys!

-Wes
 
Darrell used a Sennheiser 421. He also didn't have much low end, and the low end that he did have was up around 150hz, out of reach of the kick drum.

Zakk's sound barely has any low end.

Your guitar player is getting confused between what Dime and Zakk's sound is and his impression of what it is. Both of them have very little low end, but the amps respond as if they do. (fwump,fwump, fwump)

Most of the actual low end on those recordings is the bass guitar, which is generally playing the same thing as the guitar.

Turn the mids back up on the guitar amp, stick a 421 on the grill and take out some 1k during mixdown.
 
Huh, three positive reps for posting someone else's wisdom....who'd-a-thunk. Not that I object, but....huh.




I find it amusing that would be up over at Gear Slutz, considering how much Slippy hates them.




Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Farview said:
Both of them have very little low end, but the amps respond as if they do. (fwump,fwump, fwump)
Click to expand...

Could you elaborate on this? I'm pretty sure that Zakk uses Marshall and I know that Dime used Randall for years and then Krank. Are you saying that those cabs just have a natural "fwump, fwump, fwump" (Good term by the way!)
 
disgruntled-inc said:
Could you elaborate on this? I'm pretty sure that Zakk uses Marshall and I know that Dime used Randall for years and then Krank. Are you saying that those cabs just have a natural "fwump, fwump, fwump" (Good term by the way!)
Click to expand...
It didn't have much to do with the cabinets, it had to do with the response of the amp. Zakk uses EV speakers in his cabinet, they don't break up at all. All that is happening in the amp. (a lot of the earlier Zakk stuff was recorded using the line out of the head, no mics)

Darrell used the solid state randall head, he only used the Krank for 2 weeks before he was murdered.

Here is the easiest way to see what I am talking about. Have your guitar player learn the beginning of "Walk", mic up his amp and record. Then import the actual song into the session. A/B the two sounds, I am almost certain that your guitar player has a ton more low end than Dime did. In fact, he probably has more low end than the Pantera album had with all the instruments going.

If you really listen to the Pantera, BLS and Ozzy stuff, you will notice that there really isn't a ton of low end, especially not in the guitars. The guitars are pretty thin and transparent.
 
disgruntled-inc said:
Any tips, tricks, thoughts, or suggestions as to different mics...
Click to expand...

have you tried either Ribbon Trion7000 or Fat Head. These will do a lot of nice EQing for you by the time the signal gets to the mic preamp... and they're very reasonably priced. the tracked signal then takes EQ very well.

it too bad Zakk like Pinches so much...
 
Light said:
EVERYTHING YOU COULD EVER WANT TO KNOW ABOUT DISTORTED GUITAR RECORDING.


The short version, turn down the gain, and turn up the amp.


The long version should keep you busy for the next, oh,year or twenty - depending on how much time you spend trying to recreate what he is saying.


Seriously, a link to Slipperman's rant should be a sticky on the top of any forum about recording electric guitars.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Click to expand...

You are the man!

Thanks!

So I guess make that 4
 
Sonixx said:
have you tried either Ribbon Trion7000 or Fat Head. These will do a lot of nice EQing for you by the time the signal gets to the mic preamp... and they're very reasonably priced. the tracked signal then takes EQ very well.

it too bad Zakk like Pinches so much...
Click to expand...

My guitarsist digs on pinch harmonis a lot as well. I'll check into those mics. Always like to look at toys!
 
Farview said:
It didn't have much to do with the cabinets, it had to do with the response of the amp. Zakk uses EV speakers in his cabinet, they don't break up at all. All that is happening in the amp. (a lot of the earlier Zakk stuff was recorded using the line out of the head, no mics)

Darrell used the solid state randall head, he only used the Krank for 2 weeks before he was murdered.

Here is the easiest way to see what I am talking about. Have your guitar player learn the beginning of "Walk", mic up his amp and record. Then import the actual song into the session. A/B the two sounds, I am almost certain that your guitar player has a ton more low end than Dime did. In fact, he probably has more low end than the Pantera album had with all the instruments going.

If you really listen to the Pantera, BLS and Ozzy stuff, you will notice that there really isn't a ton of low end, especially not in the guitars. The guitars are pretty thin and transparent.
Click to expand...

I hadn't thought of recording a bit of Pantera and A/B'ing it. That's a great idea!

Zakk ran DI? Wow. I would have lost that bet.

Thanks man, I really appreciate it!
 
So far much of what has already been said has been solid advice for you. I'm listening to the songs up on myspace, and I noticed there is A LOT of flange/phaser on the guitars. I figure its one of two things.

1) You guys are going for that
or
2) It's being used to lower the harshness of the sound. caused by the excessive distortion

So i would do what most every one else has already said. Drop the Lowend, and High end a bit. Bring up yous mids a tad to fill out the sound, and lower the distortion a bit. All that will hel create a clearer picture of the guitar (so to speak).

My extra bit is that if the flange/phase effect is being used to "smooth out"" the distortion from the guitar making it not painful to listen to. Make all of your adjustments with the flange/phase FX off. Then throw it on after you get every thing else adjusted, you may even find you don't need it any more.
If its on there just cus it's what your going for, turn it back a bit as well because it will help clear up that guitar a bit more as well.

Off of what you said in your initial post I'm imagining that there is just TOO MUCH being done with the guitar. Meaning EQ'ing is off, maybe to much distortion, mics to close for the volume level.

Some times the amount of adjustment needed is so small not even the guitarist will notice. The hardest part about mixing/engineering is training the ears.

And yes. Clips of the bad recording would help quite a bit. Other wise we are shooting blind.

hardware distortion + cab Impulses + Some Adjustment EQ'ing = :D
 
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