Accurate? or Not? - A new game

Bassman Brad

Bassman Brad

New member
Hey gang,

I had this idea for a little game that we could play, which I think would provide some very useful information for those of use who are out there mic shopping (all of us, probably), and would also be a lot of fun for everybody.

First, before I explain how the game works, let me explain my reasoning behind this. I don't know about the rest of you, but my philosophy for buying mics is that I'll try to alternate my mic purchases of a particular type between one that is relatively neutral with one that is somewhat "colored" in some manner. I'll usually buy the "neutral" mic first, as I feel that this will generally be the most flexible mic - suitable for the most applications - whereas a mic that has a distinct "color" will be more of a special purpose mic (for drums, or vocals or whatever).

So, the way the game works: Try to name two mics, one of which you consider "neutral" and one of a similar design which you would consider to be "colored." (It might also help if you specify how the colored mic deviates from a "neutral" presentation.)

Just to keep it interesting and challenging, let's try to compare apples to apples, whenever possible. That is to say, let's try to keep the comparisons between mics of a similar type and price range. (For our purposes here, let's define the inexpensive category as being mics that cost up to $200 or $250; a mic that costs more than that, but still less that $750 or so will be the "medium" price category; and anything that costs more than that will be in the "expensive" category. We can be somewhat flexible on the price categories. This is just for fun, after all.)

I'll start it off:

Cardioid dynamics (cheap):
Beyer M201 - Neutral; Shure SM57 - Not (No high freq. extension. Prominent upper midrange peak.)

SDC's (expensive):
Neumman KM-84 - Neutral; Neumman KM-184 - Not (Slight boost in the high frequencies)

Cardioid dynamics (mid-priced):
Sennheiser 441 - Neutral; Sennheiser 421 (the old ones) - Not (Doesn't have complete HF extension. Also seems to hype the lows, somewhat.)

C'mon. Let's have some fun with this! :) ;) :)

Brad
 
Of course, it would be most helpful for me to know about mics that I'm not familiar with, yet. I'd love to see how people classify various ribbons, for example.

In particular, I would classify the following two mics as follows:

Ribbon (expensive): Royer 121 - Accurate; AEA R81 - Not

However, the truth is that I've never actually used either of these mics. I'm basing my impressions on the fact that: 1) The Royer is sometimes used for stereo recording (of orchestra sections, etc...); 2) I'm also familiar with some of the recordings in which the Royer has been used (on guitar amps), and I don't detect any discernable "color" coming from the mic and; 3) Although I've never used the R84, I do have some knowledge about the RCA 44, upon which the R84 is based (from what I understand), and I'm aware that the 44 is known to be a very "colored" mic. But, the truth of the matter is that I really don't know.

Can anybody either confirm or deny these impressions and, possibly even tell me how the R84 deviates from the standard of a flat frequency response?

Thanks,
Brad
 
Wow! Those are great resources! Thanks, man. The chart is especially helpful, and will come in VERY handy as I gradually try to assemble a decent mic locker.

I'll admit that I'm a bit surprised that others aren't participating in this thread. I would think that others on the forum would find this topic to be as practical and useful for them as it is for me. Guess not. :confused:

Thanks again! ;) :) ;)
Brad
 
It's funny you should mention the Earthworks mic. After reading the previous thread (that OneRoomStudios so graciously provided), I went back to my mic sampler CD (by 3D Audio - it's AWESOME!) to spend some more time listening to mics. I wanted to hear how noticable the difference was between mics that are truly "transparent" (as in low distortion) and other mics that might have a similarly flat frequency response, but aren't as clear and vivid. The difference was pretty significant - at least as important to the sound as the frequency response of the mic. There are, indeed, mics which have a "flat" frequency response, but are still very "colored" sounding, and other mics that are non-colored, but have an uneven frequency response. I suppose that I knew that on some level, but I guess I have always tended to think about microphones across only one axis - it's either flat or it's not.

Sure enough, one of the mics that I had been listening to this weekend was the Earthworks QTC-1. I'm wondering, in fact, how that compares to the cheaper mics in the Earthworks line. The TC-30, for example, comes in at about a grand for a matched pair, which doesn't seem too bad for a matched pair of really accurate recording mics. For that matter, I also wonder how much you really gain over something like the Audix TR-40's, which would cost less than half again the price of a pair of TC-30's.

I don't know anything about the Cobalt mics. I see that the one you mentioned is a dynamic cardioid mic, which means that it's an entirely different animal from the omni condenser mics. However, I also notice that it uses a neodymium element, so it's entirely possible that it sounds very "condenser-like." So, to make sure I understand you correctly, you feel that it is accurate in the sense that it has both very low distortion AND a very flat frequency response?

I would be very interested in hearing about other mics that are flat and uncolored in the low to medium price ranges.

Thanks,
Brad
 
The problem with those little omni electrets is that while they can be very transparent (flat) and have low distortion, there's another factor - self noise - that can become an issue. Even the Behringer ECM8000's (>$100 a pair) have a pretty much ruler-flat response and very little distortion...the problem is that they have a lot of self-noise. If you're recording a loud source, it doesn't matter much, but they can suck for quieter work. From what I understand, for these mics it basically translates to more money = less self noise and greater frequency response.

Of course that's only what I've heard....I built my own little omni's.
 
Yeah, good point, OneRoomStudios. I've been looking at self-noise specs on the mics that I've been looking at and they vary considerably. (You BUILT YOUR OWN MICS? :eek: :eek: :eek: -- WOW!)

Perhaps it would be helpful if I gave you all some more information about my intended applications for these mics. Well, I am just getting started in home recording, and almost all of the mics that I have are cardioid dynamics that were purchased for live use. The only condensers that I own are a Shure Beta87 for female vocals (and men with very high voices - it was Steve Perry's live vocal mic), a matched pair of MXL 609s, which came free with a Presonus MP20, and an AT2020 which came free with the Presonus Firepod.

I have just about decided on the first multi-use LDC mic that I am going to buy (a matched pair of ADK-51's v.5). But I still need something to compliment (and/or replace) the 609s. The 609s are certainly OK for the price I paid for them ;), and might be OK for overheads. But, I can't say that I'm very impressed with them. I especially don't care for the noticable high frequency boost. If a mic is going to give you extra highs, then they should be very nice, smooth highs, IMHO. I would like something that is considerably flatter in freq. response. I would want to buy a pair, to be used for location recording (mostly of my jazz band performing in a large, relatively reverberant concert hall) and also to record acoustic guitars and other instruments where I want a clean, accurate representation of the actual sound of the instrument. I would consider either cardioid or a omni mics. Mics that I'm currently considering are (omni's) Audix TR-40's, Earthworks TC-30's, and (cardioid) Shure SM81's, and SM94's (which I can't seem to find much information on - however this is clearly an example of spending the extra money for an SM81 gets you a LOT less self-noise). Anything else that I should add to the list to consider?

Thanks again,
Brad
 
Bassman Brad said:
I would want to buy a pair, to be used for location recording (mostly of my jazz band performing in a large, relatively reverberant concert hall) and also to record acoustic guitars and other instruments where I want a clean, accurate representation of the actual sound of the instrument. I would consider either cardioid or a omni mics. Mics that I'm currently considering are (omni's) Audix TR-40's, Earthworks TC-30's ...
Click to expand...

I think you're the right track there, with the mics you mention. If you're looking for something flat/neutral, yet quieter than an omni reference-type mic, then I'd also consider the Shure KSM-32.
 
Well if you're looking for mics for live recording, I would shy away from omni's. For omni's you have to have a great sounding room, and not have to worry about bleed. For your situation it might work out ok as long as you realize you'll get a ton of crowd noise (people coughing), possibly weird reverb/reflection, etc....plus if you want to use the same mics to record guitar and other instuments in a more "studio-like" situation, you're going to have to be aware of wierd room reflections, machine noise (computer, AC, refrigerator, etc). If I were you I would definitely want a pair of SM81's. I used a pair once and they were pretty awesome. PLus I have never heard a bad review of them. The cardiod pattern will make it a little easier to deal with other noise and weird sounding rooms. It's totally up to you though - if you want an omni to get more room sound, then by all means go ahead, just make sure you realize the possible problems you could encounter...
 
Great feedback, guys. Thanks. :D

Yeah, I probably should stay away from omni's, come to think of it. The room that the jazz band plays in actually doesn't sound half bad, but for some reason, the gear that the college uses to record concerts consistently results in very bad recordings. I'm convinced that I can do better. My plan is to try to put mics up closer to the stage and get more of the sound directly off of the stage. As for recording at home, well, the place that I plan to track instruments (my basement) doesn't sound that great right now, but it will before I start using it. I've already ordered a test tone CD and will pick up an SPL meter at Radio Shack the next time I'm over there. I'm planning on spending some money on room treatment before I do much recording down there. Even before I decided to try home recording, I was already aware that there were problems with bass nodes in that room, just from doing some critical listening to my hifi system. This problem will be fixed, and the room will be "tuned" before I try to do much recording in it.

The SM81 is definitely looking like the strongest contender to me, right now. I do have some experience with this mic. Back in the early 80's I spent quite a bit of time in a couple of commercial studios. The SM81's were real "workhorse mics," even back then. This is actually one of the few mics that I am familiar with from my recording days that is still around - in it's original incarnation - all these years later. Some of the other mics from that era that I'm familiar with (like the AKG 414) are already on the second or third revision since that time.

It's funny, too, that Chessrock brought up the KSM-32 up as a suggestion. I've taken a very close look at that series. The KSM-32 (and the 27) were actually on the short list of mics that I had been considering as my first LDC purchase, but I've pretty much decided to go with the A-51, instead. It STILL looks like a very impressive mic, and the KSM-32 (or the 27) might very well be the second LDC that I end up purchasing, or possibly the third one after a tube mic. The KSM sdc's also look good. They would be a strong contender for a brighter, more aggessive sounding mic to compliment my "neutral" sdc's, whatever that turns out to be.

Any other suggestions?

Brad
 
What, you mean ME use a soldering iron? Now, there's a scary thought! :eek: I don't even do the modifications on my basses myself. I think every one that I own has had the electronics customized in some way or another, but I always take it to a professional to do the actual work. The last time I bought a bass, I didn't even take it home right away. It went right off the showroom floor into the store's custom shop to get a series/parallel mod done before I even picked the bass up.

Of course, on the other hand, I suppose it's never too late to pick up a new skill. I didn't even study music theory or jazz until a few years ago, and I'll be 45 in a few months. Being a self-taught musician, I was always intimidated by music theory and jazz musicans (who actually KNEW all that theory stuff), until I finally decided that it was just ridiculous to be intimidated by simple theoretical knowledge, or a certain style of music. Besides, I feel that I have to make a conscious effort as an older musician to keep growing as a musician, or else I'm likely to fall into the trap of just playing the same 'ol riffs that I've been playing for decades.

Working a soldering iron would certainly come in handy in this hobby. I'm just dying to do some mods to my MP20, but I was planning on buying the parts and taking the box into an electronics guy and telling him "OK, I want you to switch out these parts." And, the thing is, I've SEEN what's involved with those mods (all it involves is switching out a transformer and an IC chip) and I just KNOW that this would be stupid easy to do. So, who knows, maybe I will try some of that. Hmm. I wonder what would be involved in building a tube mic preamp?

Brad
 
Bassman Brad said:
What, you mean ME use a soldering iron? Now, there's a scary thought! :eek:
Click to expand...

<RANT>
Paying someone to 'mod' a guitar is equally scary to me. Soldering is very easy with practice and the right tools. After you've repaired all those leads lying around the house the tools will have paid for themselves, then gather up some scrap electronics from your friends everyone has somehting lying around and practice. If you can use a knife and fork you can solder with some practice.

To start get a 25W iron, a reel of solder, diagonal cutters and a vacuum desoldering pump. You can get all that at ratshack for about $25 and it will do 90% of your soldering jobs. Seriously, how many times has a cable crapped out on you or one of your friends for the sake of a bit of solder. Most electronic guitar mods take a few minutes - its worth learning how to solder.
</RANT>
 
paddyponchero said:
Seriously, how many times has a cable crapped out on you or one of your friends for the sake of a bit of solder.
Click to expand...
My answer: Two just last Saturday!

I can't argue with the logic of it. And, as I mentioned, I've got to drop by Radio Shack in the next week or two anyway, soooo....

What the hell. I'll give it a shot.

Thanks for all the feedback, guys.
Brad
 
If you want a really easy project that will land you with an Omni (or two), check this out:

http://prosoundweb.com/recording/tapeop/buildmic/buildmic_16_1.shtml

It's basically the same thing as in the link paddy posted, but a little easier to understand for the beginner (at least I think so). Here are some other invaluable resources for someone getting into DIY electronics:

Soldering basics and resistor/cap codes:
http://www.elexp.com/t_solder.htm
http://www.allsands.com/HowTo/solderingbasics_fd_gn.htm
http://xtronics.com/kits/rcode.htm
and for when you want to get some practice:
http://www.electronickits.com/kit/complete/complete.htm

Hope that helps...
 
Hey Bassman,
Let me know if you do the Jensen transformer mod on the MP20. I have considered having that done on mine too. Mine already has the Burr Brown op amps, but it was like that when I bought it used so I can't compare to the non-modded sound. I do like it for my overheds, though!
 
Ill put in my 2 cents with the mics that i have owned. I will not list mics i have not used.

Neumann U87 (Blue Badge) - These are bright. Not in a harsh way like i expected them. Just always puts the source upfront. These were the blue badge (vintage 80s) so they might have been be a little warmer than the new ones.

Neumann TLM193 - I love this mic. Its got a color but it still seems transparent. It is rather dark though so i dont always find it the best mic for the situation. Smooth.

Neumann KM184s - Not as neutral as the KM84s but i like the top end. My favorite use for them was strings. They worked for everything in general but i didnt like them much on piano. Not bad but not my favorite.

Soundelux U95 - This is one smooth mic. Right out in front with minimal top end. The top end was there but it was just so smooth. Warm and colored.

Microtech Gefell UM70 - Very similiar to the U87s. Not in a Studio Projects C1 way. This might have been a little smoother than the U87s actually but they were close.

AKG C414 EB - These are vintage models. People usually say these things are harsh in the top end but i dont see it very much on these models. I love them for drum overheads because they might things very thick, tight, and in your face. I consider these neutral in general but they are quite colored. They do well at just about anything i try them on.

AKG C414 B-ULS - These are similiar to the EBs of course, but they are a little brighter on the top end.

AKG D112 - I borrowed one of these a while ago. Not a big fan of these. Very colored which some people like for rock, but i dont :D.

AKG C408 - I like using these live because of their simplicity. I had 3 but 1 just broke because it was too hard by the drummer. So not too durable i guess. Kinda bright, kinda reminds me of the D112 but on toms.

Audio Technica AT4050 - Very neutral and accurate mics. These things work on just about everything and do it quite well. Although it can be very plain at times but a touch of EQ normally works well on them. I like them for drum overheads that need to be more open.

Audio Technica AT4033 - Very colored in my opinion. Some things they work really well for and other things they are horrible. Can be nasally on vocals and harsh on the top end. But when it works it works well. I like them for drum over heads too.

Royer R-122 - Warm and dark. This mic is probably my least use mic just because it is very selective on what it works on. But it is one sweet mic.

Sennheiser e602 - Fat kick mic. More neutral than the AKG D112 in my opinion but it can have problems in the low range because its sounds soo big.

Sennheiser e604 - Great mics for toms. Colored in a good way for toms. Thick and warm.

Sennheiser MD421 - I find these more neutral than an SM57, but i also find them to have more top end then the 57. Its smoother and more open though. But i consider them a little more brighter like a condenser to a SM57.

MXL 603s - I like these more on piano then the KM184s. Different on strings. Colored. But i dont like these much on high hats and rides. They are just too bright in the high end for those and can get harsh.

Oktava MK012s - Pretty neutral mics. Good mics for the money if you can find a good matched pair. Not really bright or dark.

Electrovoice RE 20 - Neutral, but they take alot of gain. Almost too plain for me. Its very open which can be great for stuff and can take the harshness out of harsh things. Minimal proximity effect makes it good for bass amp.

Behringer ECM-8000 - Neutral of course. I dont like these very much. But they are cheap and work well for room measurements.

Studio Projects C1 - Bright and harsh. I dont really like to use this mic and if i do i cut at 5Khz almost indefinately. Can work well on dark and warm voices. Still not a bad LD condenser for the money in my opinion but not that great. Not neutral or warm.

Studio Projects B3 - Neutral and good bang for the buck. I have two right now that i use as kind of utility mics. Not my first go to mics but im not afraid to use them either.

MXL V67 - I dont use this much. I pulled this out and rediscovered its got a pretty cool color to it. Highs can be a little harsh though but it sounds sweet. Darker than the C1 and in my opinion smoother. But not too different in league.


Runnin out of time. Might have a few more i can comment about but i need to get goin. This is stuff you can find around the forum anyway. But here it is repeated again in one thread.

Danny
 
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