A matter of taste, but...

[Danelectron]

I'm looking at a Yamaha stage custom kit and will need to get hi-hats and cymbals.
I know there are many opinions on what get, but what I want to know is what not to get. I don't want a dime store sound. I have a medium budget I guess you could say. Meaning I would just as soon go a little more up front as opposed to buying that cheap sound because it's there.

I'm mostly into heavy rock. What cymbals did Bonham use? What hats does Ian Paice or Nicki (topper) Headon use?

I plan to use this kit for recording. Thanks for any and all suggestions.

Dan

 

[Tim Brown]

I'm looking at a Yamaha stage custom kit and will need to get hi-hats and cymbals.
I know there are many opinions on what get, but what I want to know is what not to get. I don't want a dime store sound. I have a medium budget I guess you could say. Meaning I would just as soon go a little more up front as opposed to buying that cheap sound because it's there.

I'm mostly into heavy rock. What cymbals did Bonham use? What hats does Ian Paice or Nicki (topper) Headon use?

I plan to use this kit for recording. Thanks for any and all suggestions.

Dan

Bonham and Paice used Paiste's, Paice still uses them. I'm not sure about Topper Headon.

Don't get anything lower than the 2002 line.
To get a Bonham-ish sound, use medium and Medium-thin cymbals.
I can tell you right now, that The Signature 20" FULL Crash has Bonham all over it. Stay away from the "power" crashes, they are too high pitched, Both Bonham and Paice had more of a lower pitched cymbal-which means a large diameter but thin... The "Power Hats" do sound good though.


I hope this helps some.
I'm a Paiste user because of Bonham myself.

Tim

 

[Danelectron]

Tim,
Thanks for the advice. I've been pricing some different brands and styles and have noticed the 20" have a more dynamic sound. Deeper sustain if that is an accurate way of describing how I hear it. I did close the deal on a set of drums so now to outfit it with cymbals. I have seen some cymbal kits like the Sabian sb8(?) that were inexpensive but I really didn't like the sound. I probably don't have the best ear so I have a hard time listening to a recording and standing in a drum store and trying to hear that sound I'm looking for. Next time I go I'll pay closer attention to the difference between the heavier and thinner choices. Thanks again.

Dan

 

[Tim Brown]

Tim,
Thanks for the advice. I've been pricing some different brands and styles and have noticed the 20" have a more dynamic sound. Deeper sustain if that is an accurate way of describing how I hear it. I did close the deal on a set of drums so now to outfit it with cymbals. I have seen some cymbal kits like the Sabian sb8(?) that were inexpensive but I really didn't like the sound. I probably don't have the best ear so I have a hard time listening to a recording and standing in a drum store and trying to hear that sound I'm looking for. Next time I go I'll pay closer attention to the difference between the heavier and thinner choices. Thanks again.

Dan

Hi Dan,

Cymbals are one area where you don't want to skimp!
With a drum, if it's going to be mic'd, there's a ton of things you can do to make it sound better...but there's not a whole lot you can do about the cymbals.
Granted, most people in the audience can't tell....but YOU'LL know!

So, You are better off buying good sounding cymbals from the start-even if you can only start out with a decent Ride and Hi-hats and have to wait to get the crashes.
Or, let me ask this question:
Are you out of school?
If so, get a night job (or a day job, if you're working nights) for a month!
Save every penny that you get from it, and you can go buy a set of brand new top of the line cymbals, even if that night job only pays minimum wage!

Alot of guys balk at this idea-but it works.... I 'm looking for a night job right now, because I need to get some power amps and Mains for my PA system(I've got a pair of HUGE Subs for the PA, but I don't have enough power to power them, and I need some tops for the PA)


Tim

 

[mikeh]

I agree with Tim. If you buy cheap cymbals, they will sound like cheap cymbals. You can always work on a drum sound (better heads, better tuning, better mics, etc.) but cymbal sounds is what they is and they ain't no is'er.

I work in a drum shop, and I try to steer people away from the ZBT/B8/303 compromise. I know there are a lot of young guys, that don't have much cash - but like Tim said you can always work for cash. Your sound is your sound - and there is no worse feeling than being embarrased by your sound.

The one exception to this may be Wuhan for China cymbals. They are very inexpensive but I really like the way they sound.

 

[Danelectron]

Tim and Mikeh,
I've been out of school for 20 years. HAHAHHAHahhaa ahum ha
That's why I say I have a medium budget. I'm just concerned that if I spend some real cash, I get something that'll be there when my ear gets there and I won't say,"Boy, For THAT money I could have gotten some REAL cymbals. I went to see Jerry Cantrell tonight and noticed that his drummer mic'ed his hi-hat. How would a person set the recording level for that mic. If you set it close to red line wouldn't that be a little high? I guess you would want to do a few takes to get it relative to the rest of the set, huh? Or I guess you would adjust that at mix-down, DuH. I'm new to recording too. I did play drums for a couple of years out of high school, but now I've gotten real serious about doing some original stuff (I play guitar too) and am enjoying the perspective of having some( not much) experience and the ambition of doin' it right. Twenty years ago I would have gotten those cheapo's(and for the money a lot of 'em) and not known better. Please keep the replies coming and feel free to run at the mouth! I get a lot out of what I am hearing.
Mikeh, I paid $650 for a set of Yahaha stage customs with the wooden snare. Is there an advantage to wood over steel? Was that a reasonable price? It came with 700 series hardware.
Thanks dudes!!!

Dan
P.S. I had a few beers at the show, but my typin' isn't too bad is it?

(disclaimer) I did a lot of backspacing and proofin'

 

[Tim Brown]

Hi Dan!
Hahaha Okay, I should have known from the Topper Headon question!

Yeah man, save your money and get some decent Paistes if that's what you like...they are worth the money.
The Econo cymbals are generally crap.
Actually, 20 years ago Zildjian had a KILLER Entry level cymbal....I can't think of what they were called off hand, but they were a great line-sounded totally pro, then they quit making them. I see them used every once in awhile.

The Paiste Alpha's aren't too bad-but if you're going to kick out over $100 for a cymbal, why not wait and kick out $140 to $180 and get the top of the line version?

I mean, my 20" Sound Formula cost me $197 in Cash locally (about $233 mailorder-It was an overstock the store was trying to get rid of), and it sounds like I stole it from Bonham.


As far as miking the Hi-hats, You would set the gain just like on any other instrument.

I set it to where it's got a good signal, but not clipping to ensure headroom.

I don't know what the stage custom goes for, but it's a situation where you definitely get more than your money's worth.
I had a set of Yamaha Stage II's (which were the Stage Custom's predecesor) and a set of Yamaha Recording Customs that were $7,000.
Now, I personally can not tell you that The recording Custom's were worth the $5,500 price difference.
The difference that I could tell was the Hardware. The sound was better on the Recording Custom set, but it wasn't THAT much better!
Both were the exact same setup....I used the Stage II's to leave in the bars/clubs, there was no way I would leave the RC's in a club!


Well, The Metal snare will be a bit brighter, while the wooden snare will have a little more "meat" to it.

I personally use a Pearl 8"x14" free-floating snare that's made from brass.
It ran me about $400 around 1989-90 or so.
It's got a microphone and a trigger custom installed...These are used to openy a Key on a Noise Gate, and to trigger sounds from an Alesis dm5.
I tend to like The Pearl Snares the best, I like the Snare strainer/system that they use.

Tim

 

[Danelectron]

Tim,
Yeah, I think I'll take your advice and listen to the Paistes again. I'll probably take your word on the Signature crash. I'll check out the power hats too. I liked the look of the wood snare and did notice it had a beefier sound. My old set had a metal snare and even though it was deeper dimensionally it wasn't as heavy sounding.
Hey, another question. I've got a large room(basement) where I'll be recording. It's about 40' X 14' and I'll be set up at the far end. I plan to do some soundproofing, but need to know how I should set up. I planned to set the drums with my back to the wall so the sound will travel toward the far end. I'm sure the reverb will be good down there. It's all sheetrocked so it shouldn't echo too bad. Most of this will be trial and error, but it will be fun. I'm pretty stoked. Now if I could just PLAY! Thanks for the moral support on my choice of the Stage Customs. I will be looking into some different heads right away I'm sure. I used pinstripes years ago and they sounded good. I'm sure I'll look that direction again. What about those 2-ply oil filled heads or whatever. I just heard something about them, but didn't get any details.
Do you use those triggers live or for recording or both. A friend runs sound for a band whos drummer used some(I don't know what brand) live and I was disappointed with the sound. My friend tried everything to get some punch out of 'em but he would get bad feed back. The guys kit really sounded good acoustically. I kinda ticked him off when I suggested he not use the triggers live. He thought it sounded fine. I guess it's true that the drummer gets a totally different perspective than the audience. I didn't mean to piss him off, but they do a good cover of Lakeside Park by Rush and I really like the drums in that and when he used the triggers he got so washed out by everyone else that it really did suck.
Maybe he didn't know how to set up his module to give Dave( the soundman) something to work with. They were new to him, but man he was stubborn and couldn't take ANY constructive criticism. I'd rather be critiqued than walk around like a dumbass. I almost went for electronic, but you can really throw some cash into them too. Maybe NEXT year.

Dan

 

[Tim Brown]

Hi Dan,

The 2002 series isn't bad, and the dimension series is killer sounding as well. I like the Signature and now discontinued Sound Formula series, because they use Paiste's "sound alloy" which I find to be more musical sounding.

I have two trigger setups:
I have a ddrum setup, with ddrum electric pads, and I have an Alesis Dm5, which I use to convert trigger to Midi signals, which fires off sounds from an Akai S2000 s/e Sampler.

Originally, I was going to get either a Space Muffins 0.0 TMI, or a top of the line DDRUM unit. The ddrums I have are the old ones-like the band EUROPE (remember that song "The Final Countdown" ?) from the 80's used, it's not Midi, so I had to get the Alesis to have Trigger to Midi Interface (or a TMI).

I was going to have a local foam company make me some foam "plugs" to go inside my drumkit ...so, I would get a piece of foam "plug" that would be 12.5"x15" to go inside my 12"x15" tom, and so on around the kiot---that way the drums would not have any volume, and I was going to use 2 triggers on each drum so I'd have killer dynamics...that way you can set different sounds for different volume levels, so if you hit realy hard, you could set up a sound with tons of reverb, and get that HUGE sound.

After using triggers alot...I'm not a big faan of them...at my price level that is... when you get into top of the line equipment in electronics, it can be a very different story! The top of the line ddrm triggers, and the top of the line ddrum sound source are incredible. the articulation and everything is great...but you pay well over $4,000 for the brain and 5 triggers.
I don't know how the "Vdrum" systems work, but I'm not a big fan of "pads".

If your drums sound good, I don't see the point of triggers....the sounds in the Alesis stuff is crap as far as I'm concerned, even though tons of soundmen use them just to pull a kick sample off of it, it's easier than mesing with trying to get a good kick sound. They can just actually tap out of the Kick mic's channel and into the drumbrain/sound source.


Heads? Well I use Pinstripes and Ambassadors... check out the Evans, or the Aquarian heads are supposed to be awesome..a friend is using the Aquarians with the black "ring eliminator" (studio X series, maybe?), and they sound killer on his Kick and snare. The toms aren't bad-but I think he tunes his toms to low...he just tunes past the wrinkles, and the yare kind of "floppy / tubby" sounding.


Tim

 

[Danelectron]

Tim,
Iwas on ebay and got a not too used Paiste Signature 20" fullride for $140. Sounded like a deal to me. They have several hi'hats:14" 1000 rude sound edge, 14" dark crisp, 13" Signature dark crisp.
I'm watching the 14" dark crisp, but I'm going out today and price some. I saw on a Led Zep bio page that Bonham used 15" hats. I'm going to demo some different sizes.
What is your opinion on the hats listed above? They didn't specify what line the 14" darkcrisp was from. Thanks for the info. It always helps to have some direction when starting to do some research.

Dan

 

[pratt]

cymbals from ebay?....

my own humble opinion - I would stay away from purchasing cymbals sight unseen (or should I say sound unheard??) It's been my experience that cymbals vary sonically - even standard lines (eg. Zildjian A), especially the speciality lines (Zildjian K - don't know the Paiste equiv.)

So even if you've heard a Paiste Signature 20" fullride and liked it - this one could be very different....

try to scout out some music stores with 'used' stuff - you normally can get pretty good deals on some pretty good cymbals

since you already purchased it though, enjoy!!

 

[Danelectron]

pratt,
I have to agree. I always figure there is a reason someone is selling something cheap. I e-mailed the seller and he said he didn't want to part with it, but needed the money. They are expensive so I thought at the price it was a fair risk. I'll see. Anyway, that's why I'm going out to demo some hats. I want to hear some 15" hi-hats. My old set had 13" and they were pretty mild. I want something with some volume and sizzle. I am a sucker for a deal, but it's usually true that you get what you pay for. Thanks for the perspective.

Dan

 

[Tim Brown]

Re: cymbals from ebay?....

my own humble opinion - I would stay away from purchasing cymbals sight unseen (or should I say sound unheard??) It's been my experience that cymbals vary sonically - even standard lines (eg. Zildjian A), especially the speciality lines (Zildjian K - don't know the Paiste equiv.)

So even if you've heard a Paiste Signature 20" fullride and liked it - this one could be very different....

try to scout out some music stores with 'used' stuff - you normally can get pretty good deals on some pretty good cymbals

since you already purchased it though, enjoy!!

Well, so far, I've bought 7 Paiste cymbals from the "Dimension" line through E-Bay, and they've all been in great shape.

The situation with Paiste is completely different than either Zildjian or Sabian.
Each Pasite is sonically matched to a "Master Cymbal", so If you buy a 20" Full Crash from the Signature series, it will sound EXACTLY like the Master cymbal....the actual variances are so minute that you can not tell by ear....it's because all the hammering is done with pneumatic hammers and presses, instead of a guy "hand hammering" the things.... So with Paiste, there's an extremely high quality control, while with Zil's or Sabians, you'd be lucky to EVER find a cymbal of a similar sound if you break one.... that's what I switched to Paiste back in the 80's.


That Full Ride is killer man, and that's a good price on it!.

I personally liked the Dark Crisp cymbals...it's a heavy bottom and a thin top. I'm using 14" 2002 sound edges, but I'm going to go to the Signatures as soon as I can come up with the extra cash.

Stay away from the 1000 line-those are old cheapo cymbals... I also didn't like the 15" cymbals, they were a bit too "swishy" for me.... kind of Alex Van Halen-ish... (yep he's been a Paiste man the whole time as well)

Tim

 

[Danelectron]

Tim,
That is interesting about the quality control of Paistes. That's good to hear! It makes sense that their should be some standards. The guy selling it said I would like it. He said it lists around $460, but could be had for around $295. $!40 was attractive. I didn't get to hear any paiste hats today. The place I went to carried mainly ziljians and some weird brands I had never heard. They didn't really want me to hit 'em either so I just looked at the shine. They were pretty. HAHAHA Didn't spend any green there. Anyway, I'm going to another shop on the other side of town tomorrow and will hear some Paistes. It might not be good to be biased when I haven't much knowledge, but Paistes do have a reputation.
One question that came to mind after pratts response was, besides keyholing and cracking which are obvious visual flaws. what about just plain abuse? Can a cymbal be metal fatigued with overuse to the point they lose resonance or tone?

Dan

 

[Tim Brown]

One question that came to mind after pratts response was, besides keyholing and cracking which are obvious visual flaws. what about just plain abuse? Can a cymbal be metal fatigued with overuse to the point they lose resonance or tone?

Dan

Well, Cymbals tend to "mellow" a little bit with age...playing on them is in effect a "hammering process" in a sense.... but weretalking 20 years or more.

I have a Paiste Rude 22" Ride that I've had since about 1981 or so, and it sounds great....especially considering the fact that I'm not a real fan of heavy (thick) cymbals.... I use that cymbal for medium to loud Ride work, and use that 20" Sound Formula Full crash for light ride work (On the bow but not the bell) and for crescendo's, where I would play on it with light crashes up to a "swell".
That last band I was playing in was really dynamic, sort of like Yes/King Crimson meets Manowar or Black Sabbath. Hahaha
It was progressive rock, but at the same time it was really dark and heavy, and there were a lot of volume changes as well as odd timing shifts.
My bass player and I finally just threw the towel in because we couldn't keep guitar players... they seemed to be intimidated by a bass player who could really play .(Mick is essentially a lead guitarist playing Bass, and he plays it like a guitar.... ala Chris Squire from yes.)


Yes, cymbals could be abused...but generally I would say that the cymbals that are more likely to be "abused" will be Crashes and China types, since people tend to really lay into those more than the ride and hi-hats.


Tim

 

[mikeh]

Hey Danelectron - I haven't been on this site in a few days and did not see that you had addressed a question to me. It appears that Tim has provided you with plenty of good information. I've read other posts by Tim and he provides good info.

In answer to you question re: the price on the Stage Customs - yes you got a decent price. The kits with a wood snare sell for a little more than the steel snare. I'm a fan of wood snares, although steel tend to cut a little more, I prefer the warmth of wood. I own about 10 snares (for different studio use), but I always grab the wood first.

Also I agree with Tim on the issue of Paiste quality control. They claim each production run can reproduce the same sound. I have found this to be true. In fact in my knowledge Paiste is the only company that seems to pursue that goal.

I've always questioned why a drummer would want the exact same sounding cymbals as everyone else. I agree that if you lost a loved cymbal, it would be nice to reproduce it - but at the same time. Each new sound I acquire gives me a new inspiration. I want my sound to be my sound.

I've never owned many Paiste cymbals. I've used them in various studios - and I think they are very good cymbals. I had played Zildian for years, and still have about a dozen for studio work. I currently play Sabian HH series (except for some 13" Zildian K-Custom hats). I visited the Sabian factory about two years ago and was very impressed with the process and the commitment to the advancement of cymbal sounds.

 

[Danelectron]

Mikeh,
I'm not so much trying to imitate others as I am trying to find a good sound. I use others as a reference. I guess I would rather get the same cymbal that maybe Bonham or Paice used as opposed to trusting My ear at this point. I did try some out today and could hear the differences in size. I still didn't get to try any Paistes though. I went to three shops and no one stocked them. One guy said they didn't move as well as the Ziljians. I tried a lot of the Sabians and Zils and there were some good sounding ones. Out of the crashes I tried I like the Ziljians best. The guy at Portland music said everyone makes high and low end ones so I should just get one that sounds good to me. I agreed with him. I could hear definate differences between them and if I was going to buy today, I could have picked out a Nice Ziljian, but my curiousity still lies with the Paistes. I would think SOMEONE would stock at least a few. Even if they were lower end ones to cut overhead costs.
Thanks for the comments on the wood snare! I had the same feeling that the wood was warmer sounding. My old Tama set had a metal snare and I thought it was a little sharp. My drum instructor had a yamaha wood snare with really good heads and I remember it having a deep punch. Not sharp like mine. She helped me tune it up with some Pinstripe heads on it, but it never did sound as good as hers. She did mention something about trying some OIL FILLED two plys that were supposed to have a heavier sound, but admitted she hadn't used them. Do you know anything about these? I'll make a decision here soon. I am having fun looking though. Man, if money WAS no object!!!

 

[Tim Brown]

Hi Dan,
The Evans Oil heads will give you a dark "thud" with virtually no "over ring" at all.

For some reason, Paiste's don't sell as well as Zildjians, and Sabians are probably the best selling cymbals on the market....of course, Paiste cymbals do cost a little more.... Again, I just like the fact that if I have a Paiste that I like, I can get another one that will sound like it if it happens to break, but I haven't broken a cymbal in years.


I like the Evan's oilheads.

They'll give you a sound somewhat like Ozzy Osbourne's Diary of a Manman drumsound, and Neil Peart from Rush used the Evan's Oilheads on stuff like "Moving Pictures"(Tom Sawyer, Red Barchetta).

Tim

 

[Danelectron]

Tim,
Cool! I'm going to have to check out some heads too! I am in the process of moving so won't get to set up this set for a couple of weeks. I'm really jonesin'.
Another pisser, I got a flat on my bike yesterday and shelled out $107 for a tow. Crooks! Then $165 for a tire and installation. I don't mind pourin' a little into a good tire, but there went a cymbal.


Everyone,
What's with rivets? I've seen some cymbals with them. Is that a tuning technique?
What is the main tone difference between 13" and 14" hats? Or 15" too, for that matter? I've only been able to demo 13" hats. And most of these were lower end that were set up with demo kits on the floor.
Thanks again to everyone responding to this thread!

Dan

 

[mikeh]

Hey Danelectron,

Rivets create a "sizzel" sound on a cymbal. Normally rivets are used in ride cymbals to create a different kind of sustain. As a general rule, rivets are used more in jazz than in rock/pop (where a tighter sound is desired). If I read your posts correctly, you're from Portland. I'm surprised you haven't found Paiste in Portland. Isn't there a Guitar Center or Mars in your area?

13" hats tend to have a tighter sound, both in sticking and using the "chick" of the foor pedal. 14" tend to have a "bigger" sound - in particular with the half open technique. 15" hi-hats are not real common, but in a rock application can sound large - in particular with the half open technique. I prefer 13" for jazz, funk and recording - and 14" for rock (I've never used 15" myself)

I'm not a fan of the hydraulic (oil filled heads). They remove too much of the tone of the drum - and I prefer some resonance. You mentioned Pinstripes in a previous post - Evans G2's are also good two-ply heads. I prefer two ply on my toms but I always use a coated single ply on the snare (I play alot of jazz, which often requires playing with brushes). But I do play alot of rock/funk and still prefer the single ply on the snare - specifically the Evans Dry Vents.

By the way I lived in Roseburg, Oregon back in the early 70's (at the time I was gigging in the Vegas/Reno/Tahoe circuit). Oregon has to be my favorite area of the country. However , back when I lived there (for about a year) you were either a trucker, a logger or a housewife - I was none of the above - I was a hippy musician (which at the time was not a good match with truckers and loggers).