A little help whith some scales!!!

OstiaMan

New member
Hi!
This is not about recording but I was wondering, where can I use a diminished scale, obviously over a diminished chord, but in what other case can it be used?
also, were to use an augmented scale(augmented and 7b5 are the only ones I can think of).

I belive you can use both scales over a dominant chord but in whitch note?

Thanx to all
 
this is in NO way my specialty so i'm 100% sure i'm wrong, but don't you just take the root note of the scale and play that chord? Play a diminshed scale on 3rd fret then play Gd7 behind it? Not really sure, hopefully osmeone who knows comes along.
 
guitarjesus, that old statement is true enough in its clever way, but also misleading and totally useless to poor OstiaMan. First off, usually there is a discernable reason that it sounds good -- that is, people noted that it sounds good, asked themselves "why," and knew enough about music to see why and extend the idea, finding more stuff that sounds good for the same basic reason, and allowing them to explain it to others. Learning this allows you to suss it out and get there sooner, without having to either spend a million years trying to play every possible combination of notes often enough to eventually recognize all the ones that sound good and play just those and leave off the "bad" ones.

The other point I have to make is that some of these more "out" sounds don't sound good until you train your ears to hear them in places that they work. So if you only go by what "sounds good," you might never kearn to appreciate the more piquant delights of the diminished and augmented scales and their close neighbors like the lydian dominant scale...

And Toad Rush, he already knows what you are saying, and he said so in the post -- he wants to know what other uses the diminished scale might have.

OK, OstiaMan, here's some help.

The diminished scale can be used over dominant chords. The diminished scale built a half step above a dominant chord's root works (for example, Abdim7 is the same notes as G7b9 without the root). Moreover, the symmetry of the dimished scale (the same notes are contained in Ab dim, B dim, D dim, and F dim) means you can move diminished fingering patterns around by minor thirds up or down the neck and the resulting notes are all good. This implies there are only three different diminished scales.

The augmented scale -- the whole tone scale, a 6-note scale as opposed to the more familiar seven-note diatonic scales -- also works as a dominant substitution. It contains a sharp 5th, natural ninth, and the dominant 7. There are only two whole tone scales -- the remaining notes not in one are in the other and vice versa.

Be aware, just playing these notes over a dominant chord does not guarantee you'll be playing anything that sounds very good at all, espcially in isolation -- which it the second comment I made above in response to the "if it sounds good, it is good" statement. You really have to work to "hear" these sounds and to use them in a musical way -- you have to slip into them and back out of them appropriately as they harmony directs. They are almost always used as a way of moving back to the tonic (or to the tonic of a new key) and sound strange or wrong if they don't resolve just so at the right time.
 
You also have to think of where and when you place this diminished chord/scale. You have to think of moving melody and harmony. There are a million chords out there, but how to form a song from a few is a different matter altogether. Like just making up F#md G2 Bbsus D/F#. That combination sounds really weird (that might be what you want?) But try D/F# G2 Asus A, and you have a pleasing series of chords. It all boils down to what do you want?
 
I forgot to also add that when you start a melody/harmony, just like a good book, it needs to have a resolve. A good ending. It just feels more comfortable.
 
Make up your own Chords, notes.


ALChuck---

I understand what you are saying. And believe me I've gone over that part of playing. Trying to understand how all these notes and chords come together. And why they use these chords with these notes. And everyone should go throw this stage, don't get me wrong.

But, it seems to bog down my artistic and inspirational abillity. And that is what it's all about, feeling, and that is art.

So, as a player you need to understand all the positions on the key board. And be able to play in any position. Have a great EAR for music, and everything flows from that.

Getting bogged down from the technical aspect of playing doesn't help anyone. So, just play.
 
guitarjesus,

I disagree. Like anything else, music is something that one does from the heart and with passion but also has a body of knowledge that can only help a natural talent be even better. I think it's a bad thing to dismiss the value of knowledge and theory and practicing as being something constraining -- it has so much to offer in freeing the imagination, in training (and stretching) the ear, and in communicating your vision to others that you collaborate with...

Sure, there is some danger in being a theory wank, but in my mind a naturally good player can only become better with some knowledge and guidelines.
 
Here´s a cool trick that might help in using diminished arpeggios to create that cool dim sound.

A diminished chord is composed of consecutive minor 3rds. Using 12 interval temperament to the octave, the diminished chord, unusual sounding as it may be, fits, mathematically quite well given you advance 3 semitones from the root to obtain the 3rd, 3 more for the flat 5th and 3 more for the double flat 7th, advance 3 more and you`re at the octave!! In the key of C, (all the "white" notes on a piano) you can start to build a diminished chord starting at the 7th (B). The chord would end up being B, D, F, G#. Now, G# is not in the key of C right?! But in it´s relative minor, A, it´s in the harmonic minor so, here´s the trick:

You can always use a diminished arpeggio of the second degree of a minor tonality (in the case of A minor use the Bdiminished arpeggio) especially over the dominant chord to create that cool diminished sound!!!

Carlos
 
guitarjesus said:
Getting bogged down from the technical aspect of playing doesn't help anyone. So, just play.

That's ridiculous. Does having a great vocabulary make you a worse writer? Does having a broader paint selection make you a worse painter?

Knowing theory doesn't guarantee better music but it does increase your chances of coming up with something besides the typical I IV V.

Creativity and ignorance are not the same thing.
 
AlChuck, Tex, carlosguardia, thanx!!
guitarjesus, I respect your opinion

carlosguardia - so I can use a Cdim7 over a Cmb5(the second degree )?
so, that means I can use an augmented scale over a dominant chord of a mayor tonality to resolve to the parallel minor(from C mayor to C minor) because of the b6 produced by the scale that is found in the minor scale, and the #4 would be enarmonic to the b5 and it haves a neapolitan 6th sound(sexta napolitana in spanish, I dont know how to call it in english, sorry)

It sounded really cool, very dramatic but also very natural.

in a simple progresion just to hear the effect clearly
C / /G7 / /Cm /
(use the augmented scale only on the 4th meassure)

thanx to all!!!
 
All I am saying is make up your own chords, and try different things is the only way to be original, and the only way to get anywhere in music.

Telling this guy that you play this chord with this scale just tells him that this is the way to play it. Which isn't true.

I don't know any guitarist that made it (been original) that thought like this.

Hendrix played the way he wanted. He did things his own way.
 
guitarjesus said:
All I am saying is make up your own chords, and try different things is the only way to be original, and the only way to get anywhere in music.

Telling this guy that you play this chord with this scale just tells him that this is the way to play it. Which isn't true.

I don't know any guitarist that made it (been original) that thought like this.

Hendrix played the way he wanted. He did things his own way.

First of all. You can't make up your own chords because they already have names. Even the ones Hendrix used. There's only 12 notes. You think they haven't labeled all the possible combinations? There are no new chords unless you deviate from even tempered tuning.

Some people, like myself and others, prefer to 'know' what we are doing because that provides a level of comfort. Some people, like yourself, prefer not to know because it kids you into thinking you are being more creative.

If you want to reinvent the wheel everytime you write a song by all means do so. But while you are proud of this amazing new chord you have created a knowledgeable player will simply say "oh yeah, that a D7dim. Didn't you know that?"
 
guitarjesus said:
But if you always follow the norm. You will never be original.
trust me.


Sure. But if you don't know what the norm is how do you know when you are doing something truly different?
 
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