a couple elliott smith covers

[v6v6v6]

hey, all,

been listening to your tunes in the mp3 forums for awhile now and i've finally mustered up enough courage to post a couple songs myself for feedback. it's been a little overwhelming because i've been learning about performance, recording, mixing, and listening all at once but it's certainly been a lot of fun.

i chose elliott smith because of the simple song structure he uses for some of his tunes. obviously, i don't match his guitar skills or the intensity he brings to the vocals, but it's good practice so i hope you'll listen to it for what it's worth.

vocals, guitars, bass - me
drums - a friend

Rose Parade

No Name No. 5

Ballad of Big Nothing

thanks.

 

[scrubs]

v6v6v6,

I think I speak for most people here when I say we would rather listen to your original music, rather than covers. Anyone can play guitar and hit a record button, so give us something unique.

That being said, Elliott Smith is one of my all-time favorite songwriters (and was a damn fine guitarist, too), so I gave a listen to hear what you did to his tunes.

1) Performance - Your guitars are not tuned/intonated properly. This is particularly evident on the acoustic lead on the left in Rose Parade. The musical performances did not add anything to the original versions, and imo, pale by comparison. Ditto with the vocals. You managed to ape Elliott's flat, vibrato-less vocal, but these performances lack any real emotional intensity. There are some pitch issues.

2) Recording - I am listening on earbuds, so I cannot comment on specifics of the mix except to say that the guitars seem to lack any tonal fullness necessary for such sparse arrangements. I don't like the doubled & panned vocals very well. ES did this on a number of tunes to great success, but I don't think it works for your voice. You might try leaving the lead vocal in the middle and taking a doubled part, compressing the heck out of it (>8:1) and bringing it up under the main vocal at a much lower volume. This will add some beef, but won't cover up the intimacy of the lead vox.

3) Songwriting - Well, you didn't write 'em, but they are still fantastic. No Name #5 is one of my personal faves. "Got a broken heart, and her name on my cast" is an amazing lyric.

If you have some originals, throw them up for use. I imagine you will get more responses with original tunes. Keep it up.

 

[v6v6v6]

thanks for the reply, scrubs.

I think I speak for most people here when I say we would rather listen to your original music, rather than covers.

understood, but i've seen this come up before... where do people like myself go who are just trying to learn the ropes and want feedback on covers? i guess you can simply compare it to the original but many times i can't even fathom the jump in quality and i'm not sure how to learn the details to emulate that sound. how did you get feedback on your covers when you were learning?

Your guitars are not tuned/intonated properly.

i'm sure this drives folks like you crazy, but i tried to make sure my guitars/bass were all in tune before i started. is it that they're not "setup" correctly? for example, sometimes i'll feel that the open strings are tuned just right but it's not quite in tune when i play chords or pick single notes.

the guitars seem to lack any tonal fullness necessary for such sparse arrangements.

is this something that needs to be corrected with the recording or can it be adjusted with eq? my acoustic is setup like this: acoustic --> fostex mixer --> delta soundcard --> guitar tracks.

I don't like the doubled & panned vocals very well. ES did this on a number of tunes to great success, but I don't think it works for your voice. You might try leaving the lead vocal in the middle and taking a doubled part, compressing the heck out of it (>8:1) and bringing it up under the main vocal at a much lower volume. This will add some beef, but won't cover up the intimacy of the lead vox.

i was actually using 3 vox tracks, 2 panned left/right and 1 in the middle, but i'll try your compression suggestion. personally, when i hear my voice i feel it's pretty plain--sorta sterile sounding--so i'm trying to discover if there's a niche that i can fit into. i thought "doubling" up would help this, but apparently not?

 

[scrubs]

how did you get feedback on your covers when you were learning?

Actually, I didn't record any covers until I had been playing and writing songs for ~12 years. I just didn't feel I could do them justice. I would much rather butcher my own songs than those of my idols. If I think it's a really great song, I'll learn it and may even play it live, but I don't record covers unless I think I have something to add to the original version. IMO, the only reasons to record a cover are 1) your version is unique/different/better than the original, or 2) in tribute (in which case #1) still applies).

i'm sure this drives folks like you crazy, but i tried to make sure my guitars/bass were all in tune before i started. is it that they're not "setup" correctly? for example, sometimes i'll feel that the open strings are tuned just right but it's not quite in tune when i play chords or pick single notes.

This is an intonation problem. It helps to have a good instrument, but even a cheap guitar, if properly set-up, will sound infinitely better. Find a good guitar repair shop near you and get a "set-up." This involves minute adjustments of the neck, bridge, truss rod, etc. to make the guitar as in-tune with itself as possible. Proper intonation depends on the guitar, neck, string gauge, string height, frets, etc. so it's best to take it to a pro unless you know what you're doing. A decent set-up will cost $75-$100.

is this something that needs to be corrected with the recording or can it be adjusted with eq? my acoustic is setup like this: acoustic --> fostex mixer --> delta soundcard --> guitar tracks.

If you are recording all the acoustic sounds direct, then yes, it is a recording problem. Getting some microphones instead of recording direct will improve your sound immensely. I would recommend the MXL 603s as a small diaphragm condenser for recording acoustic. The two tracks in my sig were recorded with a pair of 603s through an M-Audio DMP3 preamp. The tone is not exceptional (and I'm still learning about recording too), but I think mics almost always capture the tone of the instrument better than direct. Same goes for electric guitars: a mic on an amplifier cabinet will usually sound better than a direct-to-the-board track.

 

[v6v6v6]

well, thanks for listening and for your helpful comments. i hope you didn't contract "cancer" from this experience.

btw, i enjoyed your guitar playing very much.

 

[scrubs]

Thanks for listening! Now get to work on those originals!

 

[guttadaj]

I think I speak for most people here when I say we would rather listen to your original music, rather than covers.

I think it's safer to speak for yourself. I, for one, completely disagree with this statement. I enjoy listening to both, but sometimes I find that it's almost easier to listen to a cover of a song that I know to be able to better consider the mixing quality (after all, this is the mixing clinic - not songwriting clinic). With an original song, it's not often clear if sound treatments are intended for the song or are mistakes. Of course, some things are pretty cut and dry. But, with covers, if you know the song, then it makes it easier to understand what general feel the mixer is going for. Plus, you might not be a composer, but just someone who wants to be a good engineer. Then, you wouldn't necessarily have a big pool (or any at all) of originals to record. It's easy enough to pick a simple song that you like and is easy to learn to cover - like v6v6v6 said he was doing.

Anyway, enough of that screed. I listened to Rose Parade, and I liked it. I agree with scrubs that the guitar tone could benefit from micing instead of going direct. I really like your voice, v6v6v6 - very mellow and a nice tone. I didn't mind the doubling either. The drums had that boxy feel to them - a common thing - not sure how to fix that.

 

[v6v6v6]

thanks, guttadaj, i'm glad i'm not alone.

1. original music doesn't allow for specific critique because the added songwriting/arrangement factors--it's sorta like putting the cart before the horse. as i mentioned in my first post, just working on the performance, recording, mixing, etc. is mind blowing for me. i understand it's something many of you have already mastered with years of practice, but how did you get feedback to get to that point? this brings me to my second point...

2. although a lot of bad music has found it's way onto the internet, i feel sites like homerecording.com can be used as a tool to hone your musical skills by posting your progress and getting feedback. i'm sure some folks have been through formal instruction, while others have surrounded themselves with fellow musicians, but how much more does it help to get critiqued in all aspects by a worldwide audience who are trying to do the same thing?

i have a feeling music is going to benefit in leaps and bounds from this mass collaboration and it shouldn't be restricted to original music. it's like you guys are the teachers/objective listeners and i'm the student--and vice versa for anyone i might be able to help out in the future. we should track each other in all aspects of our progress.

seeing as how this thread is used to post music, it only seems fair to post covers and get appropriate feedback on them, as well. but then again, i could be wrong if it's something the community has already established.

well, that's all i have to say about that... (jumps off soapbox).

 

[scrubs]

I think it's safer to speak for yourself. I, for one, completely disagree with this statement. I enjoy listening to both, but sometimes I find that it's almost easier to listen to a cover of a song that I know to be able to better consider the mixing quality (after all, this is the mixing clinic - not songwriting clinic). With an original song, it's not often clear if sound treatments are intended for the song or are mistakes. Of course, some things are pretty cut and dry. But, with covers, if you know the song, then it makes it easier to understand what general feel the mixer is going for. Plus, you might not be a composer, but just someone who wants to be a good engineer. Then, you wouldn't necessarily have a big pool (or any at all) of originals to record. It's easy enough to pick a simple song that you like and is easy to learn to cover - like v6v6v6 said he was doing.

Point taken. However, I did not say that everyone here dislikes covers, or even that most people here dislike covers. What I said was that several people here have explicitly stated that they prefer to review original material (that is, it was composed, arranged, recorded, mixed or mastered by the poster -- i.e. not previously recorded by another artist). This may in fact be a vocal minority, but it still consists of a number of individuals who frequently review songs in the clinic (or have reviewed in the few short months since I joined this board, anyway). I also don't think I criticized this poster for putting a cover here. What I was suggesting was that he may get more reviews by posting original material here, rather than a cover. If you hadn't noticed, you and I are the only ones so far who have reviewed his post. I suspect this may be related to the likelihood that some reviewers pass over covers without listening/posting.

Beyond the potential copyright issues of posting covers on the internet (I have no idea if the poster here went through the proper channels to obtain license to cover these tunes or not), I have no problem with people learning other's songs, or even recording them for practice. However, I did voice my opinion that I prefer to hear covers that add something to the original. That is my opnion, and I did not generalize it to the board.

I personally disagree with you on the concept that it is easier to review covers. For me, I will almost always find myself comparing the cover to the original version (as was the case here), which makes it harder for me to judge the material by its own merits. That is not so much the case with originals, as I can only compare them to similar material in their respective genres.

From another perspective, I prefer not to pay to go see cover bands live. Now, there are some great cover bands, and I have no problem with bands throwing a few covers into their sets; however, if I am going to pay money to see a concert, I would prefer to hear mostly original material. That's just me, though.

One of the great things about this board is that all opinions are welcome. I encourage you to spend some more time in the clinic and, maybe, post some of your tunes here as well. Happy recording.

 

[v6v6v6]

btw, here's an original i worked on about a year ago. a goofy 1-minute song with suspect harmonies and a gratuitous drum solo at the end.

i purposely made it short to concentrate on getting the song down (was just learning to record) and trying to get all the parts to stay on beat. multiple multiple takes--recording is hard work!

 

[guttadaj]

From another perspective, I prefer not to pay to go see cover bands live. Now, there are some great cover bands, and I have no problem with bands throwing a few covers into their sets; however, if I am going to pay money to see a concert, I would prefer to hear mostly original material. That's just me, though.

One of the great things about this board is that all opinions are welcome. I encourage you to spend some more time in the clinic and, maybe, post some of your tunes here as well. Happy recording.

I'm totally with you on the cover band thing, scrubs. And, it's interesting to hear you coming at the origs/covers in terms of reviewing a mix from a different angle than I am. I appreciate your response though. I do hope to spend more time in the clinic (and on music recording in general as well), but family/job/house duties team up to do their best to thwart my efforts. Have posted once before here (a cover ) and hope to again.

Take care,
-Jeff

 

[mattamatta]

Alls I know is that this clinic is much more fun than the one peope go to to get birth control.... much less paperwork and waiting, and then there's the whole "what If I see someone I know?" there thing.

And plus there's little to no recording or music that takes place there... man, when you look at it that way, sounds horrible eh?

I think I'll take that attitude towards my classes... little to no ROCK goes on there, so it's not worth going! Except then I'll be stuck making sandwiches to pay for music gear forever!

 

[Rokket]

If we all made perfect music and everybody liked the same music, this place would be dull as hell. It's the differing opinions and the variety of music that keeps this place hopping. I don't mind someone doing covers, but I have to go with scrubs on adding something to the original. Hell I did a whole CD for my mother that had 6 covers and 6 originals on it. But I made sure they were my arrangements, my key signatures, and I changed them enough to pay homage and avoid a photocopy of the original. There is nothing wrong with cover tunes. That's how most of us learned to play, right? (I say most, somewhere out there is a prodegy who just picked it up yesterday, and today he/she is composing a 3 movement opera....) Keep doing covers as long as you need to, to learn how to record, but for me, and this is just my opinion; the real talent is in composing, arranging and recording your own songs....