A Coiuple Questions About Power Amps

SteveM

SteveM

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A Couple Questions About Power Amps

Do you use a dedicated power amp or do you use just a home stereo receiver to monitor your recordings?

What are the benefits of using a dedicated power amp over a stereo receiver?

Why are my stereo components, like my turntable and tape deck which are -10, louder through the receiver than my mixer is, which is +4?
 
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I'll take a stab at the questions I can answer.

studio101nola.com is our professional recording and rehearsal studio- we (that being my son, David) use a dedicated studio monitor power amp. Currently it is an EV unit, but I don't recall the model.

For my own, far less impressive setup here, I use an old-school Yamaha home audio receiver, from the days when specs really meant something. I'm not doing any critical listening with this setup, so it probably does not matter.

AFA benefits of a dedicated power amp, specs on pro-quality gear will often be more accurate and exact, whereas consumer-grade gear (esp. home audio gear) will often be wildly optimistic. I've seen consumer power amps rated at "X watts @ 10% THD (that's a full ten percent.)"
 
SteveM said:
Do you use a dedicated power amp or do you use just a home stereo receiver to monitor your recordings?

What are the benefits of using a dedicated power amp over a stereo receiver?

Why are my stereo components, like my turntable and tape deck which are -10, louder through the receiver than my mixer is, which is +4?
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I have many systems to monitor. In my studio I have Mackie HR824's in my main control room, Mackie SR1530Z's in the main room. In my house I have KRK Rockit 5's at my computer and in my living room I have a Pioneer SX-780 powering to sets of Klipsch's. They all have their own sound. The most accurate are the 824's so as I am settting levels and tracking I can hear a detailed account of what is going to tape. When I play through the large SR1530Z's I get a very "Live and Musical" version of what we just recorded. At my computer the KRK's are somewhat accurate but have their own sound. The Klipsch's on the other hand are very "Musical", if I get a good sound on those without it being to much bass or treble, I know I mixed well.
Your mixer being +4 wants a stronger signal than -10 equipment puts out, that is why your -10 equipment plays at lower levels.

VP
 
Victory Pete said:
Your mixer being +4 wants a stronger signal than -10 equipment puts out, that is why your -10 equipment plays at lower levels.

VP
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The turntable and tape deck are a lot louder. I have to turn down the receiver when I go to use them and I have to crank it up when I use the mixer. It's also hard to to get a good level to the tape deck from the mixer. I have to crank everything up. I would have thought it would be the other way around.

Originally I was using the LA 4A converter to go to the receiver, but when I realized the volume was lower it didn't make sense to use it. So now I go straight to it and it doesn't seem to make a difference.
 
SteveM said:
The turntable and tape deck are a lot louder. I have to turn down the receiver when I go to use them and I have to crank it up when I use the mixer. It's also hard to to get a good level to the tape deck from the mixer. I have to crank everything up. I would have thought it would be the other way around.
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I have Tascam decks and a Mackie 32x8 board. The 2 track input on the Mackie is +4, most of all the inputs and outputs on the Mackie is selectable between +4 and -10 but not that one. I ended up getting a level converter. I will post a link to the converter soon.

VP
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CleanBoxPro/
I cant find the one I bought from Sweetwater a few years back but this one looks good and is half the price I paid for mine. I cant easily get to mine it is buried in my rack.
 
When you say the -10 equipment plays at "lower levels", are you saying they are louder at lower volume levels? There's two ways to interpret what you said.
 
stevieb said:
AFA benefits of a dedicated power amp, specs on pro-quality gear will often be more accurate and exact, whereas consumer-grade gear (esp. home audio gear) will often be wildly optimistic. I've seen consumer power amps rated at "X watts @ 10% THD (that's a full ten percent.)"
Click to expand...

That's sort of what I figured. It's aimed at a flatter reference level. I had a power amp, but started using this and didn't seem to notice much. But for sure different receivers will sound different.

The question is, how overboard do you have to spend to get a good power amp. The price differences vary quite a bit.
 
SteveM said:
When you say the -10 equipment plays at "lower levels", are you saying they are louder at lower volume levels? There's two ways to interpret what you said.
Click to expand...

It can be confusing. Your mixer is expecting a +4 level (1.23v), it is getting -10 (.316v). So it is lower than the perfectly matched -10 tape deck and turntable and -10 stereo combination.

VP
 
SteveM said:
Do you use a dedicated power amp or do you use just a home stereo receiver to monitor your recordings?

What are the benefits of using a dedicated power amp over a stereo receiver?

Why are my stereo components, like my turntable and tape deck which are -10, louder through the receiver than my mixer is, which is +4?
Click to expand...
Not all stereo receivers or power amps are all the same. So there might be examples of a really well build receiver having more clean power then a cheaper power amp. But generally, a power amp is going to have a beefier power supply and fully discrete output transistors so you'll generally have more headroom and peak reserve power with a power amp. I've run my studio through a higher end Dual receiver, (made by Rotel) and also had an Adcom 200 wpc power amp. The Adcom had way more power and was built to genuine tank standards but it was overkill as my monitors were very efficient and didn't need the extra power that the Adcom offered. So I ended up going back to the receiver as it was more then good enough for the job.

About your mixer giving a lower output then your standard stereo components, I can only assume you've got the output gain control set too low. Turn it up!

Cheers! :)
 
The Ghost of FM said:
About your mixer giving a lower output then your standard stereo components, I can only assume you've got the output gain control set too low. Turn it up!

Cheers! :)
Click to expand...

I don't know. The levels are up on the mixer and a few times I've had to crank it nearly all the way up to get a good level on the tape. I should re-check what I'm using for the output. There are few different outputs options on my mixer.
 
SteveM said:
I don't know. The levels are up on the mixer and a few times I've had to crank it nearly all the way up to get a good level on the tape. I should re-check what I'm using for the output. There are few different outputs options on my mixer.
Click to expand...

What mixer do you have and what are the different outputs it offers with regard to monitoring?

Also, what input on your receiver are you using? Ordinarily, a well designed receiver will have different input sensitivities for different components. As an example, the tape deck input might be looking for a 1 volt signal and the CD input might be 2 volts. So, if you were using the CD input and your mixer was outputting a standard -10db/.673 volt signal, this would explain why your CD player was much louder at a given volume setting on the receiver.

Cheers! :)
 
The Ghost of FM said:
What mixer do you have and what are the different outputs it offers with regard to monitoring?

Also, what input on your receiver are you using? Ordinarily, a well designed receiver will have different input sensitivities for different components. As an example, the tape deck input might be looking for a 1 volt signal and the CD input might be 2 volts. So, if you were using the CD input and your mixer was outputting a standard -10db/.673 volt signal, this would explain why your CD player was much louder at a given volume setting on the receiver.

Cheers! :)
Click to expand...

I have a Toft ATB 04

I was using the "alt monitor" output. There is a monitor knob for that on the mixer. There's also the main outputs or another "main monitor" output. The problem could have something to do with the DAW I've been using right now though, which I have plugged in the 2 track return. I can't remember if it was as bad with the 4 track. I'm having that serviced right now.

The site shrank the pic so you can't see the outputs now.



1413.png
 
SteveM said:
I have a Toft ATB 04

I was using the "alt monitor" output. There is a monitor knob for that on the mixer. There's also the main outputs or another "main monitor" output. The problem could have something to do with the DAW I've been using right now though, which I have plugged in the 2 track return. I can't remember if it was as bad with the 4 track. I'm having that serviced right now.

The site shrank the pic so you can't see the outputs now.



1413.png
Click to expand...
OK. Most of what you just wrote doesn't answer the questions about which input you're using on your receiver. You need to let us know what that is and also look up the input sensitivity spec on it, as that will tell you what kind of signal strength its looking for and then you can check that against what the mixer's spec is for its monitor outputs. Once you've done all that, we'll know if and where there's a mismatch and an explainable difference in levels that you originally mentioned.

The DAW hook up you just described has nothing to do with the monitor output levels of your mixer unless you've got some weird hook up that you haven't properly explained here.

But beyond all this techo-mumbo-jumbo, is this a genuine problem? Or are we just splitting hairs over a level difference that can be compensated for by simply turning up your receiver?

Cheers! :)
 
The Ghost of FM said:
But beyond all this techo-mumbo-jumbo, is this a genuine problem? Or are we just splitting hairs over a level difference that can be compensated for by simply turning up your receiver?

Cheers! :)
Click to expand...

It's not a n urgent problem. I just thought I'd throw it out there to see if there's anything obvious about the levels between the two because I thought the problem would be the opposite of what it is. I did mean to mention though that I'm using an tape-in on the receiver. Of which there are two. Then there is CD and a phono ins.

I don't have specs for the receiver. I assumed the tape-in was a -10 input. When I get a chance later I'm going to look it up.
 
SteveM said:
It's not a n urgent problem. I just thought I'd throw it out there to see if there's anything obvious about the levels between the two because I thought the problem would be the opposite of what it is. I did mean to mention though that I'm using an tape-in on the receiver. Of which there are two. Then there is CD and a phono ins.

I don't have specs for the receiver. I assumed the tape-in was a -10 input. When I get a chance later I'm going to look it up.
Click to expand...

OK. Well, the tape in on the receiver should be a pretty normal line level sensitivity. So, I'd look closely at your gain staging on the mixer to see if you're keeping healthy levels. Maybe also check the manual for the mixer to see if there's any internal switches which set up those outputs to be low or high, balanced or unbalanced.

Cheers! :)
 
The Ghost of FM said:
. So, I'd look closely at your gain staging on the mixer to see if you're keeping healthy levels.

Cheers! :)
Click to expand...


That's what I meant by the DAW. I didn't look to see what the input level was on it. The DAW output was up as high as it could go before distortion. But I need to look again to see what it looked like on the mixer levels.
 
I'm using what used to be my hi-fi amp when I bought a new hi-fi system in 1981. The amp is a Hafler DH-200, which is a dedicated power amp built from a kit. The advantage, I suppose, was that at the time I could buy a kit for an amp for $250 or so and end up a day later with an audiophile amp that actually can cleanly drive 100W into 8 ohms or 160W into 4 ohms and can deal with 2 ohm loads and run continuously without shutting off. It has a hefty power supply and large heat sinks for each channel. It became my studio amp when I got the Juno 6, line mixer and Otari 4-track. I got another, identical amp for my hi-fi, though it now sits idle most of the time. I have three sets of speakers tied to the studio amp outputs and switched via a bank of standard light switches.

Cheers,

Otto
 
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